Heresy?

[AntM]

If Gerrard continues his playing career at Liverpool until he retires from the game, and his performances match those that we are now getting used to, he will displace Dalglish as the greatest player I have seen put on a red shirt.

[Cunny]

Jehovah

[JohnnyH]

Simple answer is no. He's not as good as him. He's also not as good as John Barnes was from 1987-1990.

 

He will go down as ONE of our greats though.

[matty]

Burn him as a witch.

 

And it's entirely possible, yes. But our view of him will probably be skewed by the number of trophies he's won at the end of it all.

Edited January 9, 2006 by matty

[Stevie H]

he'd need to lift at least one league title to ever get close to that kind of acclaim i think.

[AntM]

Don't think it has anything to do with trophies as such. Just his ability as a player across several different positions, as a leader and as an athete.

[matty]

Don't think it has anything to do with trophies as such. Just his ability as a player across several different positions, as a leader and as an athete.

 

Sure, but i think people's views will always be affected by how many times they've won stuff. Take Frank Worthington as an example, or Rodney Marsh. Amazingly talented footballers, but they stuck it out with smaller clubs and were never viewed under the microscope of championships and cup finals.

 

But on the sheer talent front, Ste's a marvel, and quite probably our best player since Kenny. Still got a couple of seasons in those legs too.

[fyds]

Souness changed many games

 

I remember a derby at Anfield where for 10 minutes he literally was everywhere

 

he could do anything

 

the greatest midfielder of his generation

I think in that team he didn't much need to. He was a hell of a player and as you say, possibly the best of his generation I can only think of Matthaus coming close around the later stages.

 

But then, this is not that generation, and the game has changed, it's faster and we are currently not the top dogs and are still a great work in progress - the team Souness played in was a polished engine that only needed occassional tweaking. In that instance, I think Gerrard's ability to change a game is more profound as the team around him (until recently) has not been that great.

Edited January 9, 2006 by fyds

[fred milne]

it would be a devastating partnership

A natural one too, building on their complementary styles of play. Souness dictating the game from deep and protecting the back four; Gerrard using his athleticism to support the attack.

 

The team Souness played in was a polished engine that only needed occassional tweaking.

Its worth pointing out that we were never the same team after Souness left. The following season we won nothing and it wasn't really until Kenny paired Whelan and McMahon together with the arrival of Barnes that we kicked on a level again finally leaving Everton behind.

Edited January 9, 2006 by fred milne

[fyds]

A natural one too, building on their complementary styles of play. Souness dictating the game from deep and protecting the back four; Gerrard using his athleticism to support the attack.

Its worth pointing out that we were never the same team after Souness left. The following season we won nothing and it wasn't really until Kenny paired Whelan and McMahon together with the arrival of Barnes that we kicked on a level again finally leaving Everton behind.

Yes Fred - but the following year was Heysel.

[Huyton_Red]

Barnes was brilliant for a while, Kenny was brilliant for a long while

 

Kenny never had a season like Barnes had in 87, 88 and 89. Yes, great player dalglish, legend and IMO the true Liverpool god cos he did it as a player and manager

 

However barnes was a better footballer, created more and scored more. Was more skillfull as well.

 

I know a lot wont agree with me but that is my honest opinion, I have NEVER seen a player, perhaps maybe maradona apart as good as barnes was for Liverpool between 87-89.

 

He was truly amazing, didnt lose the ball for three years

[fred milne]

Yes Fred - but the following year was Heysel.

Granted. However, Everton finished ahead of us in the league with something to spare IIRC.

[HeWonItFromBrock]

Kenny never had a season like Barnes had in 87, 88 and 89. Yes, great player dalglish, legend and IMO the true Liverpool god cos he did it as a player and manager

 

However barnes was a better footballer, created more and scored more. Was more skillfull as well.

 

I know a lot wont agree with me but that is my honest opinion, I have NEVER seen a player, perhaps maybe maradona apart as good as barnes was for Liverpool between 87-89.

 

He was truly amazing, didnt lose the ball for three years

 

I would extend that to 1990 - wasn't he joint top scorer with Rush on 28 goals?

 

Never got to see kenny in his prime but Barnes is far and away the best I have seen at LFC - there was end product to virtually everything he did - especially in the 87/88 season. The buzz at Anfield whenever he got the ball was immense. It was gutting to see a shadow of that player from 92 to 97.

[BG]

I have to say I agree with something Strachan said about Steven Gerrard: not the best player he's seen in any particular position but the best player he has seen overall in England.

 

The final was a brilliant example of this. Goes from an attacking midfielder who drags us back into the game and then goes in at right back against a fresh Serginho when by his own admission he 'had nothing left to give' and played him brilliantly. That plus the fact that he delivers in big games and inspires those around him makes him an UNBELIEVABLE player.

[JRC]

I would extend that to 1990 - wasn't he joint top scorer with Rush on 28 goals?

 

Never got to see kenny in his prime but Barnes is far and away the best I have seen at LFC - there was end product to virtually everything he did - especially in the 87/88 season. The buzz at Anfield whenever he got the ball was immense. It was gutting to see a shadow of that player from 92 to 97.

 

I think the point is being missed about what made Kenny the King. Barnes - a living legend for sure, and one of my all-time top ten - was bigger, stronger, a better header, hardrfaster and could go past people at will. He was probably technically as good a passer of the ball as KD. In terms of those traditional footballer's attributes, Digger was more than a match for Kenny. As was, for example, someone like Hoddle, who had fabulous technique.

 

Of course, Kenny was skilful in many ways, but it was not the skill per se that defined his genius, it was his vision, intelligence and football brain. Simply put, he saw patterns, runs, options, spaces and shots on a Football pitch that no-one else did, or could, and had the requisite skill to deliver what was required - often only as much skill as another player might have, but by doing something which they wouldn't even contemplate. The very best Chess Grand Masters have been so analysed - apparently they 'see' a different game on the board from the 'run-of-the-mill' Grand Masters.

 

Such was the god-like genius of the man who will always be the King, that those who saw him in his prime are eternally privileged.

[Cobs]

Oooh I dont know about that Cobs, especially in the first couple of seasons Barnes was as much an out and out winger as you will ever see.

 

difference between his club and england performances was confidence, when he played for Liverpool he has 40,000 people supporting him, when he played for England he had 80,000 people booing him, not to mention the fact if you are a winger and you are playing in a bad team (England) you will struggle to get into the game as you wont see enough of the ball and when you do see it you will be expected to beat 4 and score

 

He played in a great team at Liverpool who attacked with speed and width and used him all the time

 

He was f'ckin brilliant and in his prime we where banned from Europe so you can not use that argument

sorry - but you can't call a player the best in Europe who never played in Europe

 

and he didn't play all his 79 international matches at Wembley either

[Huyton_Red]

sorry - but you can't call a player the best in Europe who never played in Europe

 

and he didn't play all his 79 international matches at Wembley either

 

Why cant you ?

 

Liverpool where banned from Europe, so how can he of ever played in Europe. Thats a daft thing to say. If pele in his prime had played for signed for Liverpool in 1987 would it of been invalid to call him the best player in Europe due to the fact he couldnt play in European competition cos of the bans ?

 

And as I said, the main reason he did not play well for England was because he played in a sh'te england team and was told to hug the touchline meaning he was very dependent on service which he did not get for England but did get for Liverpool. To be fair, Kenny hardly set the world alight for Scotland did he ? And barnes did have some good performances for england it was not all bad

[Cobs]

'daft' is calling a player the best in Europe a player who didn't play in Europe.

 

Your Pele anaology is non-sensical.

 

as i've said it isn't his fault but to state Digger was better than for example van Basten you have to base it on something. Scoring goals in England's Division 1 is not enough and as he didn't do hit the heights for England at international level either the conclusion is easy to reach.

 

Dalglish's record of 30 goals in 102 matches for Scotland is pretty good IMO.

[Huyton_Red]

So if your thes best footballer the planet has ever seen, every time you get the ball you beat 10 men and score, but you play for an english club between 87-93 you could not be called the best player in Europe as you didnt play in the European cup ?

 

Eh ? Have you been on the cooking sherry

 

I base digger being better than van basten, dalglish etc on what I saw, and John Barnes is the best footballer I have ever seen in my life apart from maybe marradona. I can see where you are coming from, you are suggesting that as he was only very good in division 1 how can you call him a great, but it dont matter who he played against he was a f'ckin magician. Remember the marracana in 1984 ? Cant get much better oppposition than Brazil at home can you ?

 

Did you spend 87-90 drunk or something ?

[Will]

I base digger being better than van basten, dalglish etc on what I saw, and John Barnes is the best footballer I have ever seen in my life apart from maybe marradona

 

But how many times did you see van Basten play?

[Cobs]

so because i and Rushie and Carra think Kenny was better than Barnes - i was drunk for 3 years?

 

 

Pele showed off his skills to the World winning 3 World Cups.

 

 

Barnes was the best player in England for 3 mebbe 4 years

 

 

spot the difference - i dare you.

[AntM]

The question remains, will Gerrard eclipse even Kenny as the greatest Liverpool player in my/our memory?

 

Dlaglish was a genius on the pitch but was a member of an established side that had already earned the right to be called champions of europe. Gerrard, if he keeps up the performances, is the finest athlete I have seen on a footy pitch. He is so good he can play expertly in several positions, he can change matches, he's an inspiration leader, and is rapidly becoming as much of an icon as Dalglish ever was/is.

 

I never thought that Dalglish could be replaced as the best Liverpool player I have ever seen, but Gerrard has the potential.

[Huyton_Red]

But how many times did you see van Basten play?

 

Thats a good point

 

I think throughout the thread I have said eithe Barnes was the best Liverpool player or he was better than Kenny etc etc, I didnt see Van Basten play more than a handfull of times on TV so if I said Barnes was the best in Europe then I should of added IMO or the best I saw in Europe

 

so because i and Rushie and Carra think Kenny was better than Barnes - i was drunk for 3 years?

Pele showed off his skills to the World winning 3 World Cups.

Barnes was the best player in England for 3 mebbe 4 years

spot the difference - i dare you.

 

Yes it means you where drunk for three years, it also means you are probably bald, have bad breath and are one of the chosen few who eat the gherkins off big macs, dont ask me how I know this, I just do.

 

But in all seriousness, my drunk analogy was aimed at the fact that I am astonished how anyone who watched barnes 87-90 can think anyone was better than him.

 

As for the pele bit, george best signs for Liverpool in 1987. Retires in 1993, never played in Europe never dazzled anyone in a world cup cos Northern Ireland are sh'te ? Does that mean he is not a brilliant player and the best in Europe ?

 

England where sh'te in the 80's, thats why he didnt dazzle for them, Liverpool where banned from Europe thats why he did not dazzle in Europe - that is why, IMO you can not hold that against him in the debate about whether he was better than kenny, althought I do see where you are coming from in the only thing about Barnes is could he of consistently done it against the best in Europe like kenny did

Edited January 9, 2006 by Huyton_Red

[Cobs]

Thats a good point

 

I think throughout the thread I have said eithe Barnes was the best Liverpool player or he was better than Kenny etc etc, I didnt see Van Basten play more than a handfull of times on TV so if I said Barnes was the best in Europe then I should of added IMO or the best I saw in Europe

Yes it means you where drunk for three years, it also means you are probably bald, have bad breath and are one of the chosen few who eat the gherkins off big macs, dont ask me how I know this, I just do.

 

But in all seriousness, my drunk analogy was aimed at the fact that I am astonished how anyone who watched barnes 87-90 can think anyone was better than him.

 

As for the pele bit, george best signs for Liverpool in 1987. Retires in 1993, never played in Europe never dazzled anyone in a world cup cos Northern Ireland are sh'te ? Does that mean he is not a brilliant player and the best in Europe ?

 

England where sh'te in the 80's, thats why he didnt dazzle for them, Liverpool where banned from Europe thats why he did not dazzle in Europe - that is why, IMO you can not hold that against him in the debate about whether he was better than kenny, althought I do see where you are coming from in the only thing about Barnes is could he of consistently done it against the best in Europe like kenny did

you make me laugh

 

your Pele analogy sucks so you try a George Best one - classic.

 

and then you admit you do see the point but argue against it regardless -

 

btw - England were not schite whilst Barnes was in his peak years for LFC. I was actually drunk for most of the summer of Italia 90 but i still remember the World Cup.

[Huyton_Red]

you make me laugh

 

your Pele analogy sucks so you try a George Best one - classic.

 

and then you admit you do see the point but argue against it regardless -

 

btw - England were not schite whilst Barnes was in his peak years for LFC. I was actually drunk for most of the summer of Italia 90 but i still remember the World Cup.

 

you have just lost all credibility cos you said

 

"your pele analogy sucks"

 

psuedo yank skateboarding biff