are we bitter ?

[liverbird04]

this is probably going to get me loads of abuse but after reading the owen article yesterday from the times which (I thought was complete rubbish by the way)got me thinking I also read ian rush's column and he said he knew owen was genuinly gutted and upset by the reaction he got and when someone like rush says that then you have to start listening.Did anyone read the column by the way ?

 

can we as in liverpool fans forgive and forget ?

are we bitter?

can we take criticism of any shape or form from anyone in the media ?

 

opinions please .

 

I'll tell you for why , owen example

 

okay owen messed us around on his contract ,isn't that between him and the board though? none of us where party to what went on exactly so why can we be so harsh on the lad ,surely owen should have got ignored and not booed by even one single person ?

 

I know I am not making myself clear cos I am rubbish at expressing myself ,but the owen situation just got me thinking of different scenerios I actually know some people who hate owen's guts becos of the manner of his departure but its not like the lad left for manchester united although if they ever came in for him I don't think he would think twice about it now .

 

 

what would owen have to do exactly to be "forgiven" ? even if he came out and did a public adress and said "I want to join liverpool football club and I am sorry for the way I departed and I'll pay the club back all the mone they missed out on " I honestly don't think the people who dislike him now would be pacified ,its a strange situation in some ways . He couldn't even buy the fans affection if he wanted to.

 

he didn't walk out on us for free like Mcmanaman ,he didn't cause the club any problems when he was here eg dragging our name through the mud ,he had success at a young age and never went off the rails ,he moved abroad when he left ,he scored us loads of goals and he won us the FA cup .

 

to me the main reason is hurt not even at the way he left but becos he left at all even if people won't admit it . Players have a completely different attitude to the fans that we can't relate to in many ways ,they can switch their childhood allegiances eg carragher from everton to liverpool ,most would celebrate against the team they used to play for or even support with glee eg rooney .The fans thinking is "After all how could any player leave our great club and think there is better out there" ?? or another example gerrard nearly going to chelsea ,his transfer would have brought in 35 million quid ,he wouldn't have left us f***ed financailly like owen supposedly did but he would have been despised .

 

Players are like a different breed ,to them football is a game and their job to us it can be our life and reason to exist ,how can you bridge that ?

 

its not like there is a leaving of liverpool manual out there ,can a player ever do right for doing wrong ?

 

Owen is surely doing his time and being punished enough at newcastle ,even if he did come back next year what reception would he get ,would he be accepted like gerrard has into the fold ,could he ever be loved by the fans .

 

 

oh well I'll just get me coat now

[anfield]

I ve got nothing against him. His goals saved the club on many occasions when the football was dire to say the least. However, he could easily have signed a new contract and then left netting the club 25 million or so. He could have told madrid that he wanted to go to Liverpool and nowhere else. He has only himself to blame for this fiasco. He didn't just make one wrong decision but a whole series of poor judgements. And as for him not signing a new contract? Ask his agent who happened to be permanently on holiday.

Boooing him was totally out of order though. I don't think he can come back and the truth is we don't need him anymore. I really feel bad for the situation he has gotten himself into, a class striker at a crap club.

[fyds]

I'm one of those that don't think Owen will ever be back - which makes the whole thing moot.

 

However, also being one of those who believed he would sign, I've seen and heard enough since then and in the closing stages to know he did indeed manipulate the situation to his own ends. Yes, he had a right to do it - but as a supporter of the club promarily I think he treated us very shabbily at a sensitive time for the club.

 

Like so many players who are occassionaly prone to beleieving their own press, I got the feeling he felt we entirely owed him, and that he owed Liverpool nothing. It took him 18 months in all to um and ah over a contract extension with us, but less than four days to agree a deal with Real Madrid. When it went sour over there, he told them he wanted to come back to Anfield, and I believe him - however, he lacked the courage of his convictions in forcing Madrid to deal with us and went to Newcastle for a ,ountain of cash and an eye on his England place. That's his choice - are we supposed to support him in it?

 

I didn't and wouldn't boo him - or any returning Liverpool player - unless they had maybe done a Souness and written for THAT rag. I think we can take criticism aplenty (as if we had a choice!) but like any reasonable person, I respond better to constructive or objective criticism, much of what comes our way is neither. Owen has done what he thought best for Michael Owen, as is his right - even if he is wrong, which I think he is. I don't see his style fitting well with the all-as-a-team-together Valencia-like approach that Benitez has got us working with. Our attacking options are multi-layered with goals coming not almost exclusively from a poacher specialist (potentially easy to nullify as we have seen with Owen on occassion) but from all over the field - This season from Gerrard, Crouch, Cisse, Morientes, Carragher(!), Garcia, Alonso, Zenden, Pongolle etc...it's a new Liverpool. ( 9 premiership games won on the bounce so far, one goal conceded. We don't need Owen anymore.

Edited December 29, 2005 by fyds

[liverbird04]

nice one ,good reply .

[oojason]

I think it was probably inevitable that Owen was going to get a mixed reception on his 1st playing return to Anfield.

 

What will be interesting is to see what happens the next time he plays here - will the people who booed him last week boo him again? Possibly not - or perhaps not as many will.

 

Maybe the booing and the songs etc was a way of letting Owen know just how much he hurt us and disappointed us, in his treatment of the club and leaving like he did, when he did - and now that point has been made clearly to him.

[mercury]

Well said, fyds and oojason.

[Stew F]

I ve got nothing against him. His goals saved the club on many occasions when the football was dire to say the least. However, he could easily have signed a new contract and then left netting the club 25 million or so.

1130186[/snapback]

 

I don't think he was worth anything like 25mil at the time, neither did he or his agent. Hence the stalling on contract talks and his subsequent lower priced sale.

 

IMO he didn't move to Madrid for extra money just the kudos of playing for them, neither he nor his agent thought that would happen if he had signed a new contract because we would have held the cards and overpriced him.

 

Like I say, in his defence, he went for personal footballing reasons not bags of cash so i've now come to the opinion that he does't bother me, I wouldn't boo him nor would I cheer him. I will just treat him like any other ex Red who had a good carreer with us - a respectful round of applause.

[Guest Anders Honoré]

in response to the thread title: Plenty of red fans are bitter and it doesn't become us.

 

He deserves recognition for the years of service he has given to us in a time when he could played for better clubs.

[Pam]

its all about emotion. as fans we invest heavily in our clubs whether it is financially physically following them or buying merchandise or time on forums like this, reading books/reports/arguing with opposing fans, watching matches on tv arguing with our "significant others" over how much football we watch. This all has a cost to us. Players and journalists are in the lucky position of being paid to do what we spend a fortune on. Although some can be considered fans e.g. Carra he still hasn't spent a large part of his disposable income on following his beloved team ( i'm sure he would if he wasn't in his position )

 

Sometimes i think these privileged people just don't get why us fans take stuff so personally. That very emotion that they love when it is positive - think the atmosphere against Chelsea in the semi final or in Istanbul, the outporing of joy that led a million people to line the streets of liverpool for the homecoming does have a down side. You can't just turn off the emotion when things go a bit awry.

 

Owen left us not quite at the alter but at a rocky time. We'd just appointed one of the best young managers in Europe and weathered a storm over with the will Gerrard leave saga. He had been telling us for 18 months that he'd be signing a new contract soon and everything was fine. Then suddenly he is gone, he had the opportunity to play for Madrid and he took it, his previous dragging of heels cost us at least £10m off his market value and the timing left us no time to get a replacement. But Owen had a chance to play for Madrid so result for him.

 

Fast forward a year, we were not so good in the League but fantastic in Europe culminating in historic 5th European Cup, things weren't so great for Owen. No medals, few playing opportunities and he began to look back at Benitez's liverpool who are becoming a force again. Things didn't work out in his little trip abroad but Madrid wanted his market value and we wouldn't pay it. Newcastle would and Owen would rather play for them than sit on Madrid's bench. I don't doubt he would rather have come back to us but can anyone really say that paying double what he left us for for an injury prone striker was good business?? Footballers are a pragmatic bunch, one minute they are swearing undying loyalty to a club the next they are off in search of money, glory or a new challenge! Just listen to the same old platitudes about great club, fantastic fans, "i was a boyhood fan" etc etc. It is not quite the same for us.

 

but to get back to my point, fans feel betrayed and in these days when the media and clubs build up the fans emotions and require more and more investment (both financial and emotional) is it any wonder that there will be a negative emotional reaction? If Owen does return again for an opposing team (as long as it is not Man Utd/Chelsea or Everton) I think he will get a reception fitting for an ex player who did achieve so much for us. I think a lot of fans were embarrassed at the booing and i would never advocate booing current or former players (except Paul Ince) but on the other hand I think it is time players/journalists/clubs etc realise they can't ignore emotion. If they want passion from fans they can't expect it to all be sweetness and light. Owen did a lot for Liverpool and gave us some great memories, he was also well rewarded. The only person responsible for his not wearing red now is him.

 

are we bitter - a little but not as much as Owen - bet he would given anything to be playing in Red now!

 

would we forgive - yes, if Owen does return to Liverpool he will be welcomed by the fans as the rational majority will shout down the isolated idiots but I don't think the fans will forget.

 

we get more than our fair share of criticism form the media in their ivory towers they pick an agenda and stick to it be it "Liverpool are boring" or "Crouch cant score", i don't mind criticism if is is fair - like we can play better than we did against Everton but not when it is southern biased, malicious, untrue cr@p - does that make me bitter???

[Swan Red]

Carragher has scored this season?

 

Back to the point, the booing and the songs are completely different, the booing is out of order though I understand why people did. He was never taken to by the fans in the way Fowler was, he was always seens as maybe too middle class too straight too guarded, he never wore his heart on his sleeve regarding LFC and that's what we want.

 

Look at how we praise players, regardless of their form if they say the right things to the press. For some these words will be genuine and heartfelt, others it will be a cynical attempt to curry favour with the fans. By and large we miss that and point to the players character off the pitch while ignoring his play on it. With Owen that has happened in reverse, his move to Real Madrid merely cemented the view that many had in that he never really gave a f*** about anything but himself, his move this summer merely confirms that while also adding to the idea that it was England first and foremost.

 

So I am not bitter and I would not have booed him, I would however have sang you could have signed for a big club from the rafters

[Guest prudent]

its all about emotion. as fans we invest heavily in our clubs whether it is financially physically following them or buying merchandise or time on forums like this, reading books/reports/arguing with opposing fans, watching matches on tv arguing with our "significant others" over how much football we watch. This all has a cost to us. Players and journalists are in the lucky position of being paid to do what we spend a fortune on. Although some can be considered fans e.g. Carra he still hasn't spent a large part of his disposable income on following his beloved team ( i'm sure he would if he wasn't in his position ) 

 

Sometimes i think these privileged people just don't get why us fans take stuff so personally. That very emotion that they love when it is positive - think the atmosphere against Chelsea in the semi final or in Istanbul, the outporing of joy that led a million people to line the streets of liverpool for the homecoming does have a down side. You can't just turn off the emotion when things go a bit awry.

 

Owen left us not quite at the alter but at a rocky time. We'd just appointed one of the best young managers in Europe and weathered a storm over with the will Gerrard leave saga. He had been telling us for 18 months that he'd be signing a new contract soon and everything was fine. Then suddenly he is gone, he had the opportunity to play for Madrid and he took it, his previous dragging of heels cost us at least £10m off his market value and the timing left us no time to get a replacement. But Owen had a chance to play for Madrid so result for him.

 

Fast forward a year, we were not so good in the League but fantastic in Europe culminating in historic 5th European Cup, things weren't so great for Owen. No medals, few playing opportunities and he began to look back at Benitez's liverpool who are becoming a force again. Things didn't work out in his little trip abroad but Madrid wanted his market value and we wouldn't pay it. Newcastle would and Owen would rather play for them than sit on Madrid's bench. I don't doubt he would rather have come back to us but can anyone really say that paying double what he left us for for an injury prone striker was good business?? Footballers are a pragmatic bunch, one minute they are swearing undying loyalty to a club the next they are off in search of money, glory or a new challenge! Just listen to the same old platitudes about great club, fantastic fans, "i was a boyhood fan" etc etc. It is not quite the same for us.

 

but to get back to my point, fans feel betrayed and in these days when the media and clubs build up the fans emotions and require more and more investment (both financial and emotional) is it any wonder that there will be a negative emotional reaction? If Owen does return again for an opposing team (as long as it is not Man Utd/Chelsea or Everton) I think he will get a reception fitting for an ex player who did achieve so much for us. I think a lot of fans were embarrassed at the booing and i would never advocate booing current or former players (except Paul Ince) but on the other hand I think it is time players/journalists/clubs etc realise they can't ignore emotion. If they want passion from fans they can't expect it to all be sweetness and light. Owen did a lot for Liverpool and gave us some great memories, he was also well rewarded. The only person responsible for his not wearing red now is him.

 

are we bitter - a little but not as much as Owen - bet he would given anything to be playing in Red now!

 

would we forgive - yes, if Owen does return to Liverpool he will be welcomed by the fans as the rational majority will shout down the isolated idiots but I don't think the fans will forget.

 

we get more than our fair share of criticism form the media in their ivory towers they pick an agenda and stick to it be it "Liverpool are boring" or "Crouch cant score", i don't mind criticism if is is fair - like we can play better than we did against Everton but not when it is southern biased, malicious, untrue cr@p - does that make me bitter???

1130266[/snapback]

 

 

Pam; your words empahize the feelings and my view on the case, well written mate!

 

I do think that some fans are bitter regarding Owen, myself included. But football is about passion and emotion. If the players want a great atmosphere, they have to accept the emotions and feelings the fans have towards the players, how the club is ran, the manager, the coaching staff etc.

 

If you take this passion, love, emotions away, what is there to football?

 

And this passion, love and emotions go both ways, as it has regarding Owen.

 

But I do believe that Owen has never been appreciated by the fans as much as Gerrard, Fowler and Carragher, which I believe is down to his calmnes. He doesn't show enough emotions and passion. To me it doesn't look like he played with his heart on top of the red badge.

 

Maybe this is due to his maturity and calmnes.

[Tones]

I'm one of those that don't think Owen will ever be back - which makes the whole thing moot.

 

However, also being one of those who believed he would sign, I've seen and heard enough since then and in the closing stages to know he did indeed manipulate the situation to his own ends. Yes, he had a right to do it - but as a supporter of the club promarily I think he treated us very shabbily at a sensitive time for the club.

 

Like so many players who are occassionaly prone to beleieving their own press, I got the feeling he felt we entirely owed him, and that he owed Liverpool nothing. It took him 18 months in all to um and ah over a contract extension with us, but less than four days to agree a deal with Real Madrid. When it went sour over there, he told them he wanted to come back to Anfield, and I believe him - however, he lacked the courage of his convictions in forcing Madrid to deal with us and went to Newcastle for a ,ountain of cash and an eye on his England place. That's his choice - are we supposed to support him in it?

 

I didn't and wouldn't boo him - or any returning Liverpool player - unless they had maybe done a Souness and written for THAT rag. I think we can take criticism aplenty (as if we had a choice!) but like any reasonable person, I respond better to constructive or objective criticism, much of what comes our way is neither. Owen has done what he thought best for Michael Owen, as is his right - even if he is wrong, which I think he is. I don't see his style fitting well with the all-as-a-team-together Valencia-like approach that Benitez has got us working with. Our attacking options are multi-layered with goals coming not almost exclusively from a poacher specialist (potentially easy to nullify as we have seen with Owen on occassion) but from all over the field - This season from Gerrard, Crouch, Cisse, Morientes, Carragher(!), Garcia, Alonso, Zenden, Pongolle etc...it's a new Liverpool. ( 9 premiership games won on the bounce so far, one goal conceded. We don't need Owen anymore.

1130190[/snapback]

 

Good post again Fyds.

[boohog]

If he hadn't repeatedly lied over the course of a year about signing a new contract then I wouldn't have begrudged him on iota. As it is, he lied to the fans and to not expect some backlash for that is frankly naive.

 

As it stands I don't think Liverpool fans should ever boo ex-players (except in exceptional circumstances) particularly if we harbour hopes that they will return. That said, for the way he mislead the fans and the club I think he probably deserved it.

[Pam]

the players/media seem a bit surprised that fans don't just accept players moving on with a pat on the back and a "don't worry about it mate - its fine that you think our beloved club isn't good enough for you and you want to go somewhere else for more money/glory/england place"

 

it is true that Owen was never cheered as much as Fowler but at the time i think the fans felt Fowler needed more support and as a cheeky scouser it was easier for fans to identify with him. With Owen he was admired and respected but didn't appear to need the same support (rightly or wrongly) he was also perceived to be an England player who played for Liverpool as opposed to the other way round.

 

I can't help but find the whole situation mildly amusing. We don't need Owen, he is at a mediocre club while we just get better and better. Things change quickly in football but he is certainly a cautionary tale about the grass not always beeing greener....... Gerrard is the prime example of someone who after a fair bit of wavering decided to stay and looks like a man playing with joy. I doubt he could have found as much joy playing elsewhere.

[Swan Red]

I understand what you are saying pam but I can't agree that Fowler got more support because he needed it. the support he got from the off was phenomenal and more due to the fact we identified him as one of our own as opposed to owen who was never really seen the same way

[boohog]

I understand what you are saying pam but I can't agree that Fowler got more support because he needed it. the support he got from the off was phenomenal and more due to the fact we identified him as one of our own as opposed to owen who was never really seen the same way

1130406[/snapback]

 

Aye, because he was Welsh.

[matty]

I thought Samuel's piece missed the point by some distance. The article only mentioned that the booing might have been due to the Madrid move until very near the end, and then said that the fans views that Owen held the club to ransom was 'rubbish'. No explanation, no reason, just rubbish. Presumably because Samuel says so, then it is.

 

I don't think any Liverpool fan needs reminding how important Owen was for us, but when your prize asset engineers that kind of move, leaving us in the poop, things are going to be unpleasant to one degree or another. Owen was my favourite player, but that left a bitter taste in my mouth for sure.

 

Samuel was probably making a bid to ghost Volume 2 of Owen's autobiography anyway.

[Lee W]

No - I don't think we're bitter. We've just got a few mindless, ignorant tossers as supporters that's all. Every club has them. We should all move on from the subject of Michael Owen though.....

[Bootle Buck]

When Rafa came in he has his own targets of Alonso and Garcia. He obviously had to be creative in funding them as cash wasn't available. Given that he had a player in MO sitting on a new contract and with a possible Bosman on the horizon. Rafa didn't allow Owen to stall any longer and helped move him on. At the time the 8 million came in handy to help secure Alonso and Garcia. In hindsight we picked up a superb midfield general and a player who has scored some very vital goals. Both whom are commited to Rafa's cause 100% and players he obviously likes and trusts. Owen on the other hand could not give him that same comitment. In the end I think Liverpool FC have come out on top and Big Ears in the trophy cabinet was a nice bonus.