Our new formation and Firmino

[Molby]

Let’s talk tactics

 

it’s clear that the 4-2-3-1 with Firmino behind Salah is corresponding to a decline in attacking performance. So in the interests of not jumping to conclusions and keeping in mind causation and correlation and all that....... what’s going on?

 

And are we benefitting in other ways?

Finally, I’m going to put Firmino’s problem in a philosophical way, so imagine mystical music with wind chimes and s*** as you read this:

Last year Firmino had to fight for his freedom. In this formation it is given to him and now he is a man who has lost his purpose.

[Conrad]

the biggest issue we have is the lack of creativity from deeper that we had last year first half with coutinho, second half with oxlade-chamberlain.

keita hasn't got going yet.

 

and bobby is just off form. although i thought he did ok yesterday. he hasn't been playing better in a 4-3-3

[Earl Hafler]

It was more of boxed four than a 3-1 attack yesterday as Salah and Mané were predominantly down the flanks, Firmino central & left, Shaqiri centre & right. Against Cardiff, Firmino played as a genuine support striker, roaming across the front and getting in the opposition area more often.

Three touches within 18 yards of their goal yesterday

 

Hopefully, Fabinho will make quick progress and we’ll have someone in the middle capable of changing the tempo, the direction of attack; we began to adopt more patient tactics last season but we’ve turned almost 180 degrees and forgotten how to smother teams, which is ironic as we’ve finally assembled a defence which should enable a high press

 

When we’re switching from one flank to the other, there should be someone capable of ( or willing to ) consistently changing it up, make a quick, incisive pass into the area

Too much craft and not enough guile in midfield.

[Hightown Phil]

I'd love to know what the average position of our full backs is. I think that's the biggest difference from what I can see. Last season they felt higher. As a result it means the out ball for the centre backs and the holding midfielders doesn't get us as high up the pitch and as close to the attack as it was last season and means we're all a bit disconnected. We have got far greater control though. 

[Maldini]

The front three aren't working as hard as they used to

[cymrococh]

Other teams are focussing on stopping us breaking with speed, we just aren't getting the same sorts of opportunities this season.

[Earl Hafler]

I'd love to know what the average position of our full backs is. I think that's the biggest difference from what I can see. Last season they felt higher. As a result it means the out ball for the centre backs and the holding midfielders doesn't get us as high up the pitch and as close to the attack as it was last season and means we're all a bit disconnected. We have got far greater control though.

 

I had a look at the Huddersfield away fixture ( 0-1 this season, 0-3 last ) Different right backs but Robertson was more defensive this season and with a lower percentage of touches in their half.

Brighton at home ( 1-0 this season, 4-0 last ) Trent actually attacking more during this time, although we played two up last season.

 

Having more players in and around the area against the weaker sides is an issue

[ChrisC]

The front three aren't working as hard as they used to

This and also being doubled up on by the opposition which leaves us drastically short of ideas at times and nothing coming from midfield, Bobby being out of sorts at times also doesn’t help since we have nothing in the way of a decent replacement for him off the bench.

 

When you think City can pick a midfield three from De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Silva or Gundogan and we’re picking Milner, Gini and Hendo most weeks it’s a bloody miracle we’ve done as well as we have in most games!

[Hightown Phil]

https://statsbomb.com/2018/11/liverpool-pressing-concerns/

 

From a few days back.

[Molby]

The front three aren't working as hard as they used to

It kind of feels that way

I think Firmino is the biggest issue. He has dipped since the WC but it’s not just his level per se; he’s like the glue that binds the front three together and it’s having a knock on effect

When he’s the 9 and Salah and Mane are wide, he links better with them, certainly more, he does the normal number 9 stuff but loads of other things too

Meantime the other two are able to receive the ball wide but basically do whatever they want in possession so being wide didn’t stop them bagging loads of goals last year

 

Mo in the middle has dislodged Firmino and I think it’s having a knock on effect

 

What if Shaq went in Firmino’s current position and we went back to the old front 3 set up?

[magneto]

We're missing our number 10 (Coutinho/Ox). As good as he has done so far, Shaqiri isn't one. Firmino's dropping deeper to compensate for the lack of a 10 and I think this is where we're falling short. Lallana's not up to scratch and he's the only option we have for that position (unless Keita plays higher up the field). I think we need to dip into the market in January.

[RedSalmon]

I think more and more teams this season are using the high press/play out from the back system, which is not allowing us as much space on the ball as we had last year. Also, Frimino and Henderson have been identified as pivot players, and Salah as our 'out' from the back on the right hand side, so teams are set up to deal with that.

 

Moving Salah central and dropping Firmino back I think is Klopps way of mixing it up to counter the above.

[Molby]

I think more and more teams this season are using the high press/play out from the back system, which is not allowing us as much space on the ball as we had last year. Also, Frimino and Henderson have been identified as pivot players, and Salah as our 'out' from the back on the right hand side, so teams are set up to deal with that.

 

Moving Salah central and dropping Firmino back I think is Klopps way of mixing it up to counter the above.

this is interesting

I've been whinging about our new set up this season but I also asked the question "what are the benefits of the new formation?"

 

I understand the potential benefit as you describe it, but overall I'm not convinced

[Case]

We're missing our number 10 (Coutinho/Ox). As good as he has done so far, Shaqiri isn't one. Firmino's dropping deeper to compensate for the lack of a 10 and I think this is where we're falling short. Lallana's not up to scratch and he's the only option we have for that position (unless Keita plays higher up the field). I think we need to dip into the market in January.

This is too simplified. We had no 10 for the last few weeks of last season or the first few weeks of this, and, the Final aside, Bobby was on fire. But of course, much of that was make do and mend, so a brilliant 10 would help, as long as he has also got the workrate Klopp demands for his system. He doesn't trust Shaquiri there, yet at least, Lallana doesn't have the legs any more, so it's Keita, but so far he has shown nothing.

 

Bobby goes through slumps/regressive periods. When he joined, after his dd conviction last Christmas and now. He's a brilliant footballer and will improve again.

 

Formation wise, I agree with Molby to a point. While Bobby is off, Salah should play right or inside right more than centre. When he and Mane come inside, which they do a lot, the FB's need to bomb on, which they haven't been doing, particularly when Gomez plays there, which he has been doing in the big away's and home to City. It's not really his game.

 

I think with the squad we have, it's tweaks, hard work and timing, waiting for Keita, working with shaq.

 

Till then, clinging on to City's tails is the best we can do.

[Earl Hafler]

This and also being doubled up on by the opposition which leaves us drastically short of ideas at times and nothing coming from midfield, Bobby being out of sorts at times also doesn’t help since we have nothing in the way of a decent replacement for him off the bench.

When you think City can pick a midfield three from De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Silva or Gundogan and we’re picking Milner, Gini and Hendo most weeks it’s a bloody miracle we’ve done as well as we have in most games!

We could be more adventurous against the weaker sides but we’ve beaten all such teams we’ve played so far this season.

 

In most games this season, the defence and the deepest midfielder have been comfortably clear of the others on touches / passes per game, often as much as 50 or 60 more; this isn’t the case with City, where their back five often sees less of the ball than ours but they move the ball quicker through midfield

 

The transition to a new, more expansive midfield hasn’t been possible just yet and maybe Klopp is putting the other pieces into place first

 

 

Weird season.

[Hightown Phil]

The next 6 weeks is really interesting. We’re going to play 67% of the games we’ve played so far in 38% of the time.

 

The change of tempo is massive. Suppose we’ll get the best idea of it’s worked or not when we hit the FA Cup 3rd round.

[jimmylibel]

This is one of the most interesting threads I’ve read in ages.

 

I think our passing approach has been off. We seem to be playing riskier passes this season and the result being the ball is not sticking up top as much as it used to. Some of that is certainly down to how the opposition is being set up to counter us. But other times we seem to want to try the most difficult threaded ball when a simpler, also positive option is available.

 

Last season it was like our players instinctively knew where their teammates were. This season there seems to be a lot more crossed wires/ poor judgment. This may come back to the positional issues raised by Molby.

 

Agree strongly with Maldini too, the front 3 don’t look to be working as hard. Think they may be getting frustrated at times by the passing choices and this is partly the issue. Also it’s coming back a lot more because we’re surrendering possession in attacking areas more cheaply (at least that’s what it seems) so perhaps they don’t have the stamina to press as often as is currently required.

 

HP, thanks for posting that link. Fascinating read.

[Leo No.8]

I think the front three have been quite sloppy at times this season too. Lost count of the number of times we’ve worked a decent position and the final pass has been poor (often when it’s a very simple one). Mane’s touch is also shocking from time to time, I think it’s when he sees a good opportunity and gets ahead of himself.

[D.Boon]

Don't like Firmino anywhere other than up top central. Any other position and he's average. I'd like to see Salah picking the ball up deeper at times and pulling markers around a bit to make space for him and others to get in behind. Too often it's the long diagonal that teams are just doubling up on him to counter. Keita driving through the middle and smashing a few goals in changes the dynamic considerably as would a rested Firmino.

[scoose]

It kind of feels that way

I think Firmino is the biggest issue. He has dipped since the WC but it’s not just his level per se; he’s like the glue that binds the front three together and it’s having a knock on effect

When he’s the 9 and Salah and Mane are wide, he links better with them, certainly more, he does the normal number 9 stuff but loads of other things too

Meantime the other two are able to receive the ball wide but basically do whatever they want in possession so being wide didn’t stop them bagging loads of goals last year

 

Mo in the middle has dislodged Firmino and I think it’s having a knock on effect

 

What if Shaq went in Firmino’s current position and we went back to the old front 3 set up?

 

Id like to see Bobby in the 1 of the 4231 with shaqiri in the middle of the 3

[Zoob]

Id like to see Bobby in the 1 of the 4231 with shaqiri in the middle of the 3

 

This I would like too. Lose a bit defensively, but think we'd be better in attack.