Play-Off Scandal

[Duncan Disorderly]

West Ham end up 10 points clear of 4th place, but they have to go through the play-offs with no guarantee of promotion.

 

I think that is scandalous and they need to take a good hard look at this.

 

I know it's what all the clubs sign up for and all that, but still, not a fair situation.

[Swipe]

They still got less points than the top two. They should be grateful there's a back door at all.

[_00_deathscar]

They still got less points than the top two. They should be grateful there's a back door at all.

 

I'd love to smash that back door in.

[carrafan]

Good. I don't like West Ham and hope they don't come up.

[New York Red]

Cardiff will go up anyway.

[Gunga Din]

Good. I don't like West Ham and hope they don't come up.

 

nah, f*** that. they're the only s*** team we regularly get 6 points off.

[Murphman]

West ham fans are largely sound enough, I have quite a soft spot for them although this has diminished since the porn kings and that fat f*ck took over.

[muleskinner]

West Ham end up 10 points clear of 4th place, but they have to go through the play-offs with no guarantee of promotion.

 

I think that is scandalous and they need to take a good hard look at this.

 

I know it's what all the clubs sign up for and all that, but still, not a fair situation.

they got promotion from 6th place last time round

[épieur]

West Ham end up 10 points clear of 4th place, but they have to go through the play-offs with no guarantee of promotion.

 

I think that is scandalous and they need to take a good hard look at this.

 

I know it's what all the clubs sign up for and all that, but still, not a fair situation.

 

Why not? Should the 4th placed in the PL skip CL qualification if they are only 3 points of the top spot and 20 points off 5th?

 

I like the play-off system.

 

 

Also, great to see soton back in the PL. Been sorely missed.

[yellow jumper]

another london away which would be nice for me, not sure it suits the club though. mixed record at places like upton park. know i've not seen us win there very often.

[Gerry]

West Ham end up 10 points clear of 4th place, but they have to go through the play-offs with no guarantee of promotion.

 

I think that is scandalous and they need to take a good hard look at this.

 

I know it's what all the clubs sign up for and all that, but still, not a fair situation.

 

It's not remotely close to being "scandalous".

[kop205]

I don't really see any sporting justification for the play-offs.

 

All the arguments in favour are, from what I can tell, essentially commercial (more games = more money; more drama = more interest from neutrals/more chance to hype the 'product' = more money; and so on).

 

If there has to be the sudden death/winner takes all element then I think it would be better to make the 3rd placed team in the 2nd divsion play the 3rd from bottom team in the 1st division as a kind of 'challenge' match (which i think they used to do years ago?) to see if they are good enough to replace them.

 

The idea of a team getting promoted instead of one that they finished maybe 10 - 20 points behind over the course of a full leage season just strikes me as b******s.

[épieur]

If there has to be the sudden death/winner takes all element then I think it would be better to make the 3rd placed team in the 2nd divsion play the 3rd from bottom team in the 1st division as a kind of 'challenge' match (which i think they used to do years ago?) to see if they are good enough to replace them.

 

In principle, I like the idea. In modern football, I think it would be highly unfair though. There is a monetary gap between the bottom of the PL and the top of the chamhionship that means they wouldn't be competing on equal terms.

 

Would have been ace to see in an era where the gap wasn't so wide though.

[Rimbeux]

Don't see the problem, it's a very large division and it keeps the thing alive after Christmas. In it's way it also allows teams on small budgets to build a squad capable of making a late run to the PL , which in turn is proving there is value in good scouting and coaching, rather than just some variation of how much you can pay and pay for known players at various stages of their career.

[Swan Red]

Yeah I have some recollection of the next lowest to the auto relegated playing the next best to the auto promoted as well which is fairer.

 

It's all about the revenue it's not something I think is right but I don't know what it means to follow a championship club with f*** all to play for from november

[kop205]

Don't see the problem, it's a very large division and it keeps the thing alive after Christmas. In it's way it also allows teams on small budgets to build a squad capable of making a late run to the PL , which in turn is proving there is value in good scouting and coaching, rather than just some variation of how much you can pay and pay for known players at various stages of their career.

 

If 'keeping it alive' is a priority, then we should introduce rugby-style play-offs for the title of Champions as well, lest the top-placed team run away with the League. To the victor the spoils, and to hell with 'keeping it alive'.

 

And as for it benefitting the sides with small budgets, I'd say the opposite is just as likely to be true - it could easily benefit the sides who can afford to have their squad of 25* filled by relative experience and quality and who are thus able to rotate and have people fresh for the 3 play-off matches.

 

* or more - do they have that rule lower down?Even worse if not.

Edited April 29, 2012 by kop205

[Rimbeux]

If 'keeping it alive' is a priority, then we should introduce rugby-style play-offs for the title of Champions as well, lest the top-placed team run away with the League. To the victor the spoils, and to hell with 'keeping it alive'.

 

And as for it benefitting the sides with small budgets, I'd say the opposite is just as likely to be true - it could easily benefit the sides who can afford to have their squad of 25* filled by relative experience and quality and who are thus able to rotate and have people fresh for the 3 play-off matches.

 

* or more - do they have that rule lower down?Even worse if not.

Nothing wrong with keeping it alive through rugby play-offs, but it appears we have a useful triangulation between the two ideas, full reward for the best team, involvement for a lot more teams than 3up.

 

The small budget/sustainable teams are becoming more common at a glance, are going up and generally doing well. The likes of Swansea, Norwich, Southampton, QPR, even Blackpool to a large extent, whereas Leicester, Shef Utd, Portsmouth, Hull, Boro, have spent bigger on wages than most of the others in their time, and struggled to even stay up in the division. Looks like a real trend

Edited April 29, 2012 by Rimbeux

[Ramón Benítez Hernández]

Cardiff will go up anyway.

 

PLTBF

[psl]

Its not exactly Watergate is it?

[kop205]

Nothing wrong with keeping it alive through rugby play-offs, but it appears we have a useful triangulation between the two ideas, full reward for the best team, involvement for a lot more teams than 3up.

 

The small budget/sustainable teams are becoming more common at a glance, are going up and generally doing well. The likes of Swansea, Norwich, Southampton, QPR, even Blackpool to a large extent, whereas Leicester, Shef Utd, Portsmouth, Hull, Boro, have spent bigger on wages than most of the others in their time, and struggled to even stay up in the division. Looks like a real trend

 

Teams who aren't good enough to be in with a sniff of top 3 half way through a 40+ game season don't deserve to have the season 'kept alive' for them by still allowing them to somehow sneak promotion and thus gain a reward that should go to one of the very best in the division. I'm not a fan of the number of European places available these days either as it happens but at least they go to the sides who finish highest or win things.

 

And I still don't see this trend, not least because I've got no evidence that the likes of Hull or Sheffield United (for example) have spent significantly more than the likes of Southampton or QPR.

 

Also not really sure that the likes of Blackpool or QPR are really much different to the likes of Hull in terms of what they have achieved anyway - promotion, swift/immediate relegation (very possible for QPR this season), then challenging again soon enough. Leicester and Boro are back up there or thereabouts now too I notice and chances are one/both will reappear in coming seasons.

[growler]

I think the team finishing 3rd should have an advantage. Maybe 5 play 6, with the winner playing 4th then the winner plays 3rd place. So team finishing 3rd only has to play 1 game.

[Rimbeux]

Teams who aren't good enough to be in with a sniff of top 3 half way through a 40+ game season don't deserve to have the season 'kept alive' for them by still allowing them to somehow sneak promotion and thus gain a reward that should go to one of the very best in the division. I'm not a fan of the number of European places available these days either as it happens but at least they go to the sides who finish highest or win things.

 

And I still don't see this trend, not least because I've got no evidence that the likes of Hull or Sheffield United (for example) have spent significantly more than the likes of Southampton or QPR.

 

Also not really sure that the likes of Blackpool or QPR are really much different to the likes of Hull in terms of what they have achieved anyway - promotion, swift/immediate relegation (very possible for QPR this season), then challenging again soon enough. Leicester and Boro are back up there or thereabouts now too I notice and chances are one/both will reappear in coming seasons.

The alternative is a dredge of a season for half the league with little to play for. Sporting purity is fine, but these clubs have to keep their grounds full and people watching on tv. I don't see the downside short of affecting one team, I also don't see the downside of having around a third of the PL in Europe

 

For a few reasons people might speculate on, such as if a team is on the rise or the slide, there is a trend that goes against the received idea (flawed imo) that wage bill is the best indication of where a team will finish. It's in the double promotions of Norwich and Soton, it's in data I've seen on things like Swiss Ramble or read about for teams like Blackpool. I think it's also linked to the wage restrictions below the championship encouraging a return to smart scouting and coaching as the most important thing. I speculate it means clubs are just in better shape to compete for promotion than those with a more chaotic turnover, looking for quick fixes with their bigger wage bills.

[kop205]

The alternative is a dredge of a season for half the league with little to play for. Sporting purity is fine, but these clubs have to keep their grounds full and people watching on tv. I don't see the downside short of affecting one team, I also don't see the downside of having around a third of the PL in Europe

 

For a few reasons people might speculate on, such as if a team is on the rise or the slide, there is a trend that goes against the received idea (flawed imo) that wage bill is the best indication of where a team will finish. It's in the double promotions of Norwich and Soton, it's in data I've seen on things like Swiss Ramble or read about for teams like Blackpool. I think it's also linked to the wage restrictions below the championship encouraging a return to smart scouting and coaching as the most important thing. I speculate it means clubs are just in better shape to compete for promotion than those with a more chaotic turnover, looking for quick fixes with their bigger wage bills.

 

re the first paragraph - I just don't think that sporting purity is something that should effectively be written of as 'all well and good, but...' which is what that amounts to in my eyes.

 

Maybe I'd feel different and be glad of the play-offs if i supported a side who it might effect and I supposew that they have been around long enough now that if it was the start of a slippery slope to things like a play-off for the title then it would have happened already.

 

I'm just not comfortable with them from a sporting perspective, nor do I like the financial motivations that brought them in, but that is just me.

 

re the second paragraph, it is indeed speculation and would all be equally true regardless of whether the play-offs existed. It seems like a bit of a contrived justification for them to me but whatever, you like them, I don't!

[Damian_de]

If there has to be the sudden death/winner takes all element then I think it would be better to make the 3rd placed team in the 2nd divsion play the 3rd from bottom team in the 1st division as a kind of 'challenge' match (which i think they used to do years ago?) to see if they are good enough to replace them.

They introduced exactly this in the Bundesliga to OK effect

[Rimbeux]

re the first paragraph - I just don't think that sporting purity is something that should effectively be written of as 'all well and good, but...' which is what that amounts to in my eyes.

 

Maybe I'd feel different and be glad of the play-offs if i supported a side who it might effect and I supposew that they have been around long enough now that if it was the start of a slippery slope to things like a play-off for the title then it would have happened already.

 

I'm just not comfortable with them from a sporting perspective, nor do I like the financial motivations that brought them in, but that is just me.

 

re the second paragraph, it is indeed speculation and would all be equally true regardless of whether the play-offs existed. It seems like a bit of a contrived justification for them to me but whatever, you like them, I don't!

Maybe it's a contrivance, it's just something I've noticed about the Championship reading around arguments against the parachute payment, that it gives the relegated teams huge advantage. Doesn't seem to play out that way, but I'm also with the logic that it does give a bigger shout to more teams to go up, and when they have, it's not been to certain doom.

 

I don't think you can dismiss the practical concerns of having enough audience to make ends meet, the football league has spent a decade getting it's house in order so that 72 clubs and the levels below can at least aim for solvency, the play offs are a part of that, and I'd argue that having most of the teams in a division believing they have a shout of promotion at the start of the season is good for the sporting integrity and purity.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Rimbeux