4-2-3-1...

[Chewie]

A while ago there was some interview or discussion about 4-2-3-1 being the default system used at all levels across the club/ academy..is this true and can anyone shed any light on it? Also, if this is the case then does this not apply to the first 11? Is this a formation the club and academy are convinced in but not kenny? Fwiw right now with the players at our disposal I reckon I'd take

 

Gk plus back 4 from yesterday,

Holding two of Lucas plus 1 (Jay or adam)

Attacking 3 of Gerrard, kuyt, maxi or Bellamy

Suarez as forward

 

Henderson, carroll, downing, Carra, Kelly, and the unused players from above can warm the bench...

 

The main question tho is about the philosophy of the football club...anyone know anymore about this?

 

Chewie

[goodrobotusses]

One of Borrell or Segura (sorry, can't remember which) spoke at a conference on youth development about the plan put into place for the youth sides by the whole team plus Rafa. Segura/Borrell (whichever spoke) said they'd wanted the Barca-style 4-3-3, but Rafa argued for 4-2-3-1 because it was the team's default formation at the time and the view was that it was more suitable for the PL, I think.

 

EDIT: There's a blog that translates the talk somewhere out there. I'll try to dig it up.

 

EDIT 2: Here it is: http://www.aliverpoolthing.com/2011/07/pep-segura-explains-strategy-behind.html

 

The technical program of the Academy is based on a 4-2-3-1 system of play implemented by Rafa Benitez "although I would have preferred a 4-3-3, but England has historically used the 4-4-2 and we had to adapt." In the case of Liverpool, "using it as a key tool because our style is the passing game, where os our greatest impact".

EDIT 3: For what it's worth, my belief is that we should be building a team around a 4-2-3-1 with Suarez as the '1'. But we signed a targetman to go with him, so that's where we're headed. That said, I thought we played some exceptional football in the second half of last season as a sort of movement-based 4-2-2-2 with Kuyt/Suarez up front, Maxi/Meireles as narrow wide-mids and Lucas/Spearing holding. The runs into the channels by the forwards with Maxi/Meireles cutting into the area made us very difficult to defend against. Still failing to understand why we've abandoned it.

Edited November 6, 2011 by CJMcDonald

[Molby]

at this moment in time, Carroll is the reason we can't play one up front, rather than any particular hankering to play 4-4-2

 

leave aside the fact that Suarez is the superior man at playing up on his own, Carroll has nowhere near the movement required to play that role for us and there is no way in the world we are going to turn in to a long ball team, with players buzzing around him

 

that was evident yesterday when he won a fair few knock downs that went nowhere due to lack of support

at the time everyone was howling that nobody was close to him to collect any of the knock downs, myself included, but in the long run, that's no way to play - not for a serious club that wants to compete in the CL

 

 

we could readjust to accommodate him and do much better than we did yesterday but it will only get us so far,,,,and then we will need to change our style again, which means shipping him out

 

 

 

 

I hate to say this and I desperately want him to succeed but at this moment in time he's a waste of a player

we can only field 11 - I would far rather have an extra man in midfield and let Suarez play up on his own

 

 

 

 

soz, hate to be negative

Edited November 6, 2011 by Molby

[Epic Swindle]

Not negative at all, think you're spot on bar shipping him out, mainly because I don't think that will happen anyway.

[Zoob]

Mentioned in another post that 4-2-3-1 doesn't work unless Carroll is not involved, yet at the same time I think the players we have are far better suited to that formation, and it provides more attacking threat.

[Epic Swindle]

Think Carroll is a great weapon to have in the armoury, but the price tag puts pressure on the manager to play him. Kenny won't be scared though, he's shown already that he'll leave him out, and I think he would have had Stevie been fit.

 

Or we could make Carroll the focal point and use Suarez where he often played for Ajax, drifting in from the flank.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Masuka

[Falconhoof]

at this moment in time, Carroll is the reason we can't play one up front, rather than any particular hankering to play 4-4-2

 

leave aside the fact that Suarez is the superior man at playing up on his own, Carroll has nowhere near the movement required to play that role for us and there is no way in the world we are going to turn in to a long ball team, with players buzzing around him

 

that was evident yesterday when he won a fair few knock downs that went nowhere due to lack of support

at the time everyone was howling that nobody was close to him to collect any of the knock downs, myself included, but in the long run, that's no way to play - not for a serious club that wants to compete in the CL

 

 

we could readjust to accommodate him and do much better than we did yesterday but it will only get us so far,,,,and then we will need to change our style again, which means shipping him out

 

 

 

 

I hate to say this and I desperately want him to succeed but at this moment in time he's a waste of a player

we can only field 11 - I would far rather have an extra man in midfield and let Suarez play up on his own

 

 

 

 

soz, hate to be negative

 

I hate thinking it too, because i've so wanted Carroll to be a massive player for us, but i'm starting to wonder what he was bought for.

[Benzo-13]

Think Carroll is a great weapon to have in the armoury, but the price tag puts pressure on the manager to play him. Kenny won't be scared though, he's shown already that he'll leave him out, and I think he would have had Stevie been fit.

 

Or we could make Carroll the focal point and use Suarez where he often played for Ajax, drifting in from the flank.

Move a player who's better upfront and at the centre of all our good things to accommodate a player who hasn't done a tap for us in near ten months.

No thanks.

[Molby]

Think Carroll is a great weapon to have in the armoury, but the price tag puts pressure on the manager to play him. Kenny won't be scared though, he's shown already that he'll leave him out, and I think he would have had Stevie been fit.

 

Or we could make Carroll the focal point and use Suarez where he often played for Ajax, drifting in from the flank.

 

tbh I don't even see a sub role for him because I can't see any other top team 'throwing on a big man'

 

 

Barca, Real, Man u, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Milan,

 

who does it? where are the crosses coming from?

 

I watched Real play this morning and was looking to see if they did much different to Barca

they put a few more crosses in because they have a few good headers of the ball like Ronaldo

 

but the crosses are perfect and the idea of having a forward on whose main attribute is physicality would be ridiculous to them, even under Mourinho...let alone to Barca, who don't even cross from corners

[Benzo-13]

tbh I don't even see a sub role for him because I can't see any other top team 'throwing on a big man'

 

 

Barca, Real, Man u, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Milan,

 

who does it? where are the crosses coming from?

 

I watched Real play this morning and was looking to see if they did much different to Barca

they put a few more crosses in because they have a few good headers of the ball like Ronaldo

 

but the crosses are perfect and the idea of having a forward on whose main attribute is physicality would be ridiculous to them, even under Mourinho...let alone to Barca, who don't even cross from corners

Bayern have Mario Gomez, Molby - he being a big striker who has goal scoring hunger, movement and attributes but just happens to be a unit.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Benzo-13

[Epic Swindle]

To be fair there's not many players of his ilk about, and some of those clubs have experimented with a bigger physical presence up top. He's not just a big lump, he can play a bit and be an absolute menace, that's the frustrating thing. To me he doesn't look as hungry as he did when he played for his boyhood club, and that extra passion and desire might have skewed his ability somewhat.

[Molby]

To be fair there's not many players of his ilk about, and some of those clubs have experimented with a bigger physical presence up top. He's not just a big lump, he can play a bit and be an absolute menace, that's the frustrating thing. To me he doesn't look as hungry as he did when he played for his boyhood club, and that extra passion and desire might have skewed his ability somewhat.

 

I also agree with this

 

but: 30 years ago, every club had a big forward and their role was more about flick ons and attacking crosses than build up play

 

 

in the last 5 years, the best two big forwards I can think of are Torres and Drogba and they used their attributes mostly to work the channels on their own

 

4 defenders marking them and still they get hold of the ball and get it down to bring team mates in

that's their function for 80% of the game, the rest is the extras you get with players of that quality

 

Carroll looks a long way away from doing this

 

Bayern have Mario Gomez, Molby - he being a big striker who has goal scoring hunger, movement and attributes but just happens to be a unit.

 

exactly, was just thinking this

 

as you say, 'just happens to be big'

 

same with Jan Koller

he just happens to be big, but he could play and he gave the Czechs an extra dimension but they were a skilful, technical team - they didn't centre their game around getting crosses in to him

[New York Red]

I hate thinking it too, because i've so wanted Carroll to be a massive player for us, but i'm starting to wonder what he was bought for.

 

I think it was a statement of intent from the new ownership as much as anything else.

 

We could have done a lot more with that 35 million. I don't think ownership knew enough to say to Commoli "are you f*cking mad??? 35 million???"

[Epic Swindle]

Have to agree there, needs more to his game than just relying on crosses for 90 mins. If he wants to make it here he'll have to adapt to how we play. In fairness he covered a lot of ground v WB and got his rewards. And he scores yesterday and we might have a different outlook. All ifs and buts and more questions than answers with him but I don't think we can afford to carry him at the moment with what's at stake.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Masuka

[Molby]

lads, here is a way of playing that imo most suits the players we have

 

it has one weakness and that's that it won't tolerate injuries to certain players, which makes it almost redundant tbh but anyway, as a theoretical exercise here is a 3-5-2 that's actually a 3-4-2-1

 

Pepe

 

Skrtel Carra Agger

 

Johnson Lucas Spearing Enrique

 

Gerrard Bellamy

 

Suarez

 

 

imo every player on the pitch gets to do what they are best at with this formation

 

 

Downing, Hendo, Carroll and Adam, all on the bench - can you imagine all that money being left there?

Edited November 6, 2011 by Molby

[Molby]

lads, here is a way of playing that imo most suits the players we have

 

it has one weakness and that's that it won't tolerate injuries to certain players, which makes it almost redundant tbh but anyway, as a theoretical exercise here is a 3-5-2 that's actually a 3-4-2-1

 

Pepe

 

Skrtel Carra Agger

 

Johnson Lucas Spearing Enrique

 

Gerrard Bellamy

 

Suarez

 

 

imo every player on the pitch gets to do what they are best at with this formation

 

 

Downing, Hendo, Carroll and Adam, all on the bench - can you imagine all that money being left there?

 

and sorry to answer my own post but I can see Hendo, Downing, Kuyt and Maxi as subs for the two behind Suarez and Adam for one of the CMs if necessary and we need to attack more

 

 

cannot see a role for Carroll

 

 

 

ffs

[The_MC]

I don´t see Suarez as a lone striker at all. I think it would waste what he is so good at, with his use of the channels and his creativity and his running at the defenders. He looks best facing the goal and not with his back to it. I think if Carroll was supported well enough he´d be fine as the CF, but you´d have to get the supporting players going around him. One of the things that really impressed me with Carroll the first time i saw him (an England game) was how well he collected the ball and linked up with the midfielder. I dont have a problem having Suarez in the supporting striker role or even on a flank as long as the fullbacks are giving adequate support.

[Molby]

I don´t see Suarez as a lone striker at all. I think it would waste what he is so good at, with his use of the channels and his creativity and his running at the defenders. He looks best facing the goal and not with his back to it. I think if Carroll was supported well enough he´d be fine as the CF, but you´d have to get the supporting players going around him. One of the things that really impressed me with Carroll the first time i saw him (an England game) was how well he collected the ball and linked up with the midfielder. I dont have a problem having Suarez in the supporting striker role or even on a flank as long as the fullbacks are giving adequate support.

 

ok, gonna mark your post now

 

1 he is as a good a hold up player as I've ever seen; would add Torres, Dalglish, Heskey (in his pomp) and Drogba to that list

 

2 every player would rather face the play but the whole point is that half the job is done as you collect the ball for this kind of player - he isn't, and never will be, an Owen or a Lineker

 

3 Carroll and support: needs 2 wingers or equivalent, or longer balls; say we get them, what is Suarez doing? where do we get these wingers? we already have one of the best in Downing. Ronaldo was a winger for Man Utd and they could have signed any 'big forward' going. They didn't and brought him inside instead

 

4 He is an ideal England player, ideal for England to finish in the top 16 every time; dinosaur tactics partially insigated by our press and astonishingly even Sven and Capello fell for it

 

5 we have the most attacking, skilful FBs we've had for years and we also have a genuine winger; and what? doesn't mean they have to restrict themselves to hitting the byline to get crosses in

Edited November 6, 2011 by Molby

[Zoob]

tbh I don't even see a sub role for him because I can't see any other top team 'throwing on a big man'

 

 

Barca, Real, Man u, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Milan,

 

who does it? where are the crosses coming from?

 

I watched Real play this morning and was looking to see if they did much different to Barca

they put a few more crosses in because they have a few good headers of the ball like Ronaldo

 

but the crosses are perfect and the idea of having a forward on whose main attribute is physicality would be ridiculous to them, even under Mourinho...let alone to Barca, who don't even cross from corners

 

Saw an interesting stat based on the 105 or so goals scored by strikers in the champions league last season - only 3 were headers. I know this isn't exclusively what Carroll was bought for, but the whole "big man up front" philosophy seems to be one that has largely died out. People like Drogba are big and strong, but also have pace, technique and intelligent movement to go with it.

[abc]

ok, gonna mark your post now

 

1 he is as a good a hold up player as I've ever seen; would add Torres, Dalglish, Heskey (in his pomp) and Drogba to that list

 

2 every player would rather face the play but the whole point is that half the job is done as you collect the ball for this kind of player - he isn't, and never will be, an Owen or a Lineker

 

3 Carroll and support: needs 2 wingers or equivalent, or longer balls; say we get them, what is Suarez doing? where do we get these wingers? we already have one of the best in Downing. Ronaldo was a winger for Man Utd and they could have signed any 'big forward' going. They didn't and brought him inside instead

 

4 He is an ideal England player, ideal for England to finish in the top 16 every time; dinosaur tactics partially insigated by our press and astonishingly even Sven and Capello fell for it

 

5 we have the most attacking, skilful FBs we've had for years and we also have a genuine winger; and what? doesn't mean they have to restrict themselves to hitting the byline to get crosses in

 

Saw a passage of play from yesterday (on the telly) and he (Suarez) showed for the ball by backing into the defender - using a basketball terminology he was "posting-up" his marker. That is proper forward play which would basically have allowed him to turn his man as soon as he got the ball.

 

PS: howdy!

[Earl Hafler]

Move a player who's better upfront and at the centre of all our good things to accommodate a player who hasn't done a tap for us in near ten months.

No thanks.

 

 

I think we play 3 up. Carroll, Suarez, Bellamy or Downing. Midfield three of Gerrard and Lucas, then Henderson or Adam.

 

Against stiffer opposition, drop a forward and play Spearing, asking Gerrard to play as in 08/09.

 

Both Suarez and Bellamy have the game to play either side of Carroll. So does Downing on form. Give it a go. If not, then Carroll is one expensive mistake.

 

---------------------Lucas------------------

---------Gerrard----------------Adam---------

----Suarez / Bellamy--Carroll---Bellamy / Saurez---

 

Even better with a pacey centre back purchased and the fullbacks bombing on.

 

A slow centre of defence has been holding us back for years.

[surf]

 

 

EDIT 3: For what it's worth, my belief is that we should be building a team around a 4-2-3-1 with Suarez as the '1'. But we signed a targetman to go with him, so that's where we're headed. That said, I thought we played some exceptional football in the second half of last season as a sort of movement-based 4-2-2-2 with Kuyt/Suarez up front, Maxi/Meireles as narrow wide-mids and Lucas/Spearing holding. The runs into the channels by the forwards with Maxi/Meireles cutting into the area made us very difficult to defend against. Still failing to understand why we've abandoned it.

 

i'm at a loss here as well. the best football we played under kenny was with maxi & meireles making clever runs into dangerous positions. it was perfect pass and move. now meireles has been sold and maxi isn't getting games, yet the XI that are on the pitch now look static and lethargic. it makes no sense to me at all

[Benzo-13]

I think we play 3 up. Carroll, Suarez, Bellamy or Downing. Midfield three of Gerrard and Lucas, then Henderson or Adam.

 

Against stiffer opposition, drop a forward and play Spearing, asking Gerrard to play as in 08/09.

 

Both Suarez and Bellamy have the game to play either side of Carroll. So does Downing on form. Give it a go. If not, then Carroll is one expensive mistake.

 

---------------------Lucas------------------

---------Gerrard----------------Adam---------

----Suarez / Bellamy--Carroll---Bellamy / Saurez---

 

Even better with a pacey centre back purchased and the fullbacks bombing on.

 

A slow centre of defence has been holding us back for years.

 

I'd go with having Kuyt and Bellamy either side of Suarez.

Movement and game intelligence.

Carroll is too static when a team drops deep against us.

 

Can't rely on Gerrard at all at the minute.

Be more inclined to have Henderson and Spearing with Lucas unless Stevie is available.

[Epic Swindle]

I'm more at a loss why people keep harking back to a few good games last season when the squad was at peak fitness like they were some sort of benchmark, not to mention a couple of players who are very inconsistant themselves but seem to get better and better after every average result.

 

We've played plenty of cracking football this season, while bedding in a lot of new players, and have just been unlucky with a few results which would have changed the whole outlook of our start.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Masuka

[Cooldude]

A front three of Kuyt Bellamy and Suarez is just mouthwatering. Bellamy and Kuyt can interchange position with Suarez and allow him to come up the ground to do some work at times (which he enjoys) while still having one of Kuyt or Bellamy playing off the last man.

 

Then having Lucas, Gerrard and one of Spearing or Adam in behind the three to sure things up and also allow one of Adam or Gerrard to go forward to support. Not to mention full backs bombing on

 

I think a 4-3-3 brings out the best in our players atm. Not a big fan of the 4-4-2 in the modern game, don't think it can work consistently unless you have top top top players in lots of positions, which we really don't have

Edited November 6, 2011 by Cooldude