When Can We Judge?

[Hightown Phil]

I know there's a big thing on here about 'It's only two games etc etc' but at what point do you start saying 'This is it and it's going to stay like this?

 

At what point do you start saying 'It's s***'?

[madaboutlfc]

i guess it would be christmas.. Im excited by Merieles signing and if he does really really well I think a lot of peoples opinions including mine would change about hodgson but then he had to ruuin it all by sign konchesky

[Rocheteau]

Tired and made a stupid comment which Ive withdrawn

Stick with the manager for a season then judge, its the liverpool way, or it should be

Edited August 30, 2010 by ChaoticPrimate

[Cheesecake]

i guess it would be christmas.. Im excited by Merieles signing and if he does really really well I think a lot of peoples opinions including mine would change about hodgson but then he had to ruuin it all by sign konchesky

 

I'm worried by our lack of tactical nous, no scrap that, out ability to get about teams in the first half, we seem vacant until half time - again today and in EVERY game this season so far, worrying big time.

Edited August 30, 2010 by DPD1973

[Hassony]

Tired and made a stupid comment which Ive withdrawn

Stick with the manager for a season then judge, its the liverpool way, or it should be

 

what if we were 15th by christmas?

[Rocheteau]

what if we were 15th by christmas?

 

I'd expect Hodgson would resign and would make a case for Purslow to be sacked

 

 

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

there's more than a case for Purslow to be sacked as it is

[Maldini]

I'm worried that we're still suffering from the same problems as last season and in some cases those problems are worse ie: awful movement off the ball, the inability to break teams down, a lack of purpose on the ball, poor or non-existent pressing and a general weakness at the back. I'm also worried that we don't appear to be signing players to remedy any of these problems, in fact by letting Aquilani go we've weakened ourselves further with regard to the first two problems.

[ajams]

All depends doesn't it? If we start losing 5-0 every week I imagine he'll be in big trouble by the end of September. On the other hand we could go on playing badly and scraping results until Christmas, but so long as we continue to get results there will be a decent argument for tolerating the performances, for the time being at least.

 

Personally I am trying to ignore anything Hodgson may have done before he came to Liverpool and assess him purely on the basis of his time here.

 

My view is that he inherited a club and a squad in turmoil. We are/were low on confidence both on the pitch and behind the scenes, with a number of disaffected players and very little in the way of time or financial backing to rejuvenate the squad. There was nothing to be done about the lack of pre-season time - pretty much the shortest I can remember - but we have been active in the transfer market.

 

I think our business this summer has been sensible, if not particularly inspiring. Key areas have been addressed, unhappy players have been moved on, and attempts are clearly being made to re-balance the squad, which for me had a massive Alonso-shaped hole at the heart of it all of last season.

 

As things stand we are still waiting to see what the make-up of our squad will be and we are also waiting for key players to regain fitness and form, as shown by yesterday's horrible performance.

 

Still, so far we have played 7 competitive games, and we've won 5, lost 1 and drawn 1. We're level on points with our main rivals in the league despite having faced tougher fixtures, and we've made it through two potentially tricky ties in Europe, during which we've had to field several fringe players.

 

We've been slow starters for a few years now - early season European play-offs were never much fun under the previous regime either, and yesterday's performance reminded me very much of the Sunderland away game at the start of 08-09.

 

Anyway, I'm not here to make excuses, what we've seen so far hasn't been great, but no real damage has been done. I expect to see steady improvement over the next 2 to 3 months, with a discernible tactical plan and team shape. I also hope to see our big players settle down and find some form, because that will spread confidence through the team.

 

I'm still feeling fairly positive about this season overall, but it's not blind faith. I want progress and results, but I'm prepared to give Hodgson a reasonable amount of time to make his mark.

[Siang]

He will probably play this team for the rest of the season...

 

 

Pepe

 

GloJo Carra Agger Konchie

 

Merry SteG

 

Dirk JoCo Jovy

 

T9

 

by Nov, we should know where our season is heading...up North or down South

 

[Hassony]

T9?

 

f*** off

 

would rather this team if everyone is fit

 

Jones

Johnson Carra Agger Aurelio

Poulson/ Lucas Raul M

Kuyt Gerrard Cole

Torres

[RazorUK]

All depends doesn't it? If we start losing 5-0 every week I imagine he'll be in big trouble by the end of September. On the other hand we could go on playing badly and scraping results until Christmas, but so long as we continue to get results there will be a decent argument for tolerating the performances, for the time being at least.

 

Personally I am trying to ignore anything Hodgson may have done before he came to Liverpool and assess him purely on the basis of his time here.

 

My view is that he inherited a club and a squad in turmoil. We are/were low on confidence both on the pitch and behind the scenes, with a number of disaffected players and very little in the way of time or financial backing to rejuvenate the squad. There was nothing to be done about the lack of pre-season time - pretty much the shortest I can remember - but we have been active in the transfer market.

 

I think our business this summer has been sensible, if not particularly inspiring. Key areas have been addressed, unhappy players have been moved on, and attempts are clearly being made to re-balance the squad, which for me had a massive Alonso-shaped hole at the heart of it all of last season.

 

As things stand we are still waiting to see what the make-up of our squad will be and we are also waiting for key players to regain fitness and form, as shown by yesterday's horrible performance.

 

Still, so far we have played 7 competitive games, and we've won 5, lost 1 and drawn 1. We're level on points with our main rivals in the league despite having faced tougher fixtures, and we've made it through two potentially tricky ties in Europe, during which we've had to field several fringe players.

 

We've been slow starters for a few years now - early season European play-offs were never much fun under the previous regime either, and yesterday's performance reminded me very much of the Sunderland away game at the start of 08-09.

 

Anyway, I'm not here to make excuses, what we've seen so far hasn't been great, but no real damage has been done. I expect to see steady improvement over the next 2 to 3 months, with a discernible tactical plan and team shape. I also hope to see our big players settle down and find some form, because that will spread confidence through the team.

 

I'm still feeling fairly positive about this season overall, but it's not blind faith. I want progress and results, but I'm prepared to give Hodgson a reasonable amount of time to make his mark.

 

 

I think that is a very fair and balanced post. I am however a little more concerned than you are, but it really is far too early to pass judgment on Roy's regime. For me the fact the club is in the midst of so much upheaval I think Roy is the wrong man at the wrong time. If everything off the pitch wasn't so sh!te then maybe I'd feel a little more optimistic about his appointment. I can't help but feel completely underwhelmed, and I fear that maybe some of the players may have similar feelings. If ever there was a time that for me we needed an inspiring managerial appointment it is now. I do however admire his courage and belief in his own abilities in leaving a comfortable position at Fulham to take on this train wreck of a club.

 

It's the first time that I haven't at least been rejuvenated by the new manager, and maybe it's just because I see Roy as a honest good manager, but not one that I thought would be good enough to manage Liverpool. I see him comfortably managing mid-table at the likes of West Ham, Fulham, Everton etc.

I think for me he is unfortunately currently a symbol of everything I despise about the current owners, and it feels like we appointed someone to reset expectations of where we should be competing in the league. It feel's like another step on sending this once proud club down towards mid-table obscurity.

 

Like I said, I hope and I pray that I am wrong and that I grow to love Roy as much as I have loved all the prior managers with the sole exception being Souness.

[ajams]

I think that is a very fair and balanced post. I am however a little more concerned than you are, but it really is far too early to pass judgment on Roy's regime. For me the fact the club is in the midst of so much upheaval I think Roy is the wrong man at the wrong time. If everything off the pitch wasn't so sh!te then maybe I'd feel a little more optimistic about his appointment. I can't help but feel completely underwhelmed, and I fear that maybe some of the players may have similar feelings. If ever there was a time that for me we needed an inspiring managerial appointment it is now. I do however admire his courage and belief in his own abilities in leaving a comfortable position at Fulham to take on this train wreck of a club.

 

It's the first time that I haven't at least been rejuvenated by the new manager, and maybe it's just because I see Roy as a honest good manager, but not one that I thought would be good enough to manage Liverpool. I see him comfortably managing mid-table at the likes of West Ham, Fulham, Everton etc.

I think for me he is unfortunately currently a symbol of everything I despise about the current owners, and it feels like we appointed someone to reset expectations of where we should be competing in the league. It feel's like another step on sending this once proud club down towards mid-table obscurity.

 

Like I said, I hope and I pray that I am wrong and that I grow to love Roy as much as I have loved all the prior managers with the sole exception being Souness.

 

I can see where you're coming from on a lot of this, and I agree that he is a pragmatic appointment although you have to wonder who else we could have got in at this point in time.

 

Clearly the situation we're in behind the scenes is an absolute nightmare, and it's very difficult not to have that taint your perception of every aspect of the club. However I believe Hodgson has taken the job in good faith and will do his best to improve the playing side.

 

From my point of view I am not affording Hodgson any more leeway than any other manager we've had. The fact that he hasn't proven himself at the very top level does not mean I'm adjusting my expectations to accept a drop in performance. He's the manager of Liverpool FC and his job is to compete for trophies and get us as close to the top of the table as possible.

 

If we continue to perform poorly and struggle for results I will start to worry. At the same time I think he deserves to go about the business of restructuring the squad and getting the team to play his way without being jumped upon at every turn.

[Siang]

T9?

 

f*** off

 

would rather this team if everyone is fit

 

Jones

Johnson Carra Agger Aurelio

Poulson/ Lucas Raul M

Kuyt Gerrard Cole

Torres

 

No Pepe?

 

T9 = Torres (ok i get it, u dont like the moniker T9)

 

[RazorUK]

I can see where you're coming from on a lot of this, and I agree that he is a pragmatic appointment although you have to wonder who else we could have got in at this point in time.

 

Clearly the situation we're in behind the scenes is an absolute nightmare, and it's very difficult not to have that taint your perception of every aspect of the club. However I believe Hodgson has taken the job in good faith and will do his best to improve the playing side.

 

From my point of view I am not affording Hodgson any more leeway than any other manager we've had. The fact that he hasn't proven himself at the very top level does not mean I'm adjusting my expectations to accept a drop in performance. He's the manager of Liverpool FC and his job is to compete for trophies and get us as close to the top of the table as possible.

 

If we continue to perform poorly and struggle for results I will start to worry. At the same time I think he deserves to go about the business of restructuring the squad and getting the team to play his way without being jumped upon at every turn.

 

 

I don't disagree with you mate, and I won't be jumping to any wild conclusions early on.I do believe Hodgson has taken the job with the aim of improving us, and I am sure it will take time. I just have no optimism going into this season for the first time that I can remember. I don't have that maybe it's our year feeling that I usually get before our dreams are crushed. A couple of good performances would probably do all of us the world of good, and maybe some of the non-believers (like me) would start to believe:D

 

I'm glad you are not adjusting expectations due to the change of manager, others would appear to have. 4th was the minimum expectation for the last manager, and the least we should expect this season is a very good and spirited fight for 4th, and a good shot at the cups, even in this turmoil we should be good enough to take a cup.

 

I do however have a lingering fear that all the crap that goes on behind the scenes has taken it's toll on this squad of players and some of them feel like we do that we are doomed unless we get bought out.

Having worked at a place where you knew the end was nigh, it's difficult to come in and give it your best everyday. Regardless what these players are paid, the uncertainty must affect them to some degree.

[Stevie H]

I'm worried that we're still suffering from the same problems as last season and in some cases those problems are worse ie: awful movement off the ball, the inability to break teams down, a lack of purpose on the ball, poor or non-existent pressing and a general weakness at the back. I'm also worried that we don't appear to be signing players to remedy any of these problems, in fact by letting Aquilani go we've weakened ourselves further with regard to the first two problems.

 

we don't look fit. there's little energy and drive, particularly to support players in possession in attacking areas, and the defenders look sluggish. agree that the movement off the ball has been completely absent, yesterday we just sat back and didn't get at west brom at times when they had 8, 9 or 10 behind the ball, and the manager showed little sign of trying to change things.

 

think the rest of this season is going to be more than ever about reliance on gerrard and torres to win matches. as for 'judging' the manager, i was worried when we were linked with him, i was worried when we appointed him and my view of him hasn't changed. so before anyone jumps on it there's nothing three or four match kneejerk about it.

[David Hodgson]

we don't look fit. there's little energy and drive, particularly to support players in possession in attacking areas, and the defenders look sluggish. agree that the movement off the ball has been completely absent, yesterday we just sat back and didn't get at west brom at times when they had 8, 9 or 10 behind the ball, and the manager showed little sign of trying to change things.

 

think the rest of this season is going to be more than ever about reliance on gerrard and torres to win matches. as for 'judging' the manager, i was worried when we were linked with him, i was worried when we appointed him and my view of him hasn't changed. so before anyone jumps on it there's nothing three or four match kneejerk about it.

 

So you were pre-emptively knee jerking so as not to be later accused of knee jerking?

 

The truth is neither you or I can tell how well RH will do. His CV and reputation in the game are solid enough that achievement at LFC is not beyond on him (on paper at least). Of course it's right to be nervous and worried, and to know that we weren't appointing one of the worlds top 5 managers, reputation wise, means the value of our stock could just as readily go down as well as up.

 

Eventually, all will be revealed. It hasn't been yet though.

[Stevie H]

So you were pre-emptively knee jerking so as not to be later accused of knee jerking?

 

The truth is neither you or I can tell how well RH will do. His CV and reputation in the game are solid enough that achievement at LFC is not beyond on him (on paper at least). Of course it's right to be nervous and worried, and to know that we weren't appointing one of the worlds top 5 managers, reputation wise, means the value of our stock could just as readily go down as well as up.

 

Eventually, all will be revealed. It hasn't been yet though.

was never knee-jerking. he's never been good enough to manage liverpool fc but his appointment is a consequence of a far, far bigger issue. the truth is i know roy isn't a top class manager so i don't really expect top class performances from us, again though, symptomatic of the bigger problem. or as was repeatedly pointed out last season, the 'context'. we're not signing top class players, we're selling them. we didn't appoint a top class manager and we know why.

 

how long is eventually by the way? what are you prepared to wait for? administration? what are you prepared to accept?

[David Hodgson]

was never knee-jerking. he's never been good enough to manage liverpool fc but his appointment is a consequence of a far, far bigger issue. the truth is i know roy isn't a top class manager so i don't really expect top class performances from us, again though, symptomatic of the bigger problem. or as was repeatedly pointed out last season, the 'context'. we're not signing top class players, we're selling them. we didn't appoint a top class manager and we know why.

 

how long is eventually by the way? what are you prepared to wait for? administration? what are you prepared to accept?

 

I'm always ready for an upgrade so if we get billionaire owners in October and they want to bring in the world's best manager, I'm down with that.

 

If that doesn't happen, then patience is required. I'd like to think I'm mentally resilient enough to give RH the whole season, to see if he's taking us in a positive direction. I did with Rafa in his first, and despite times in 04/05 when things looked much worse than under Houllier, bit by bit Rafa got things together, and by the end of the season the performances in Europe showed that we had a future under that manager.

[ajams]

Just as a side issue, other than Rafa have we ever appointed a manager with a major league title under his belt?

 

I suppose Houllier won a French title with PSG, but I don't really see his CV as all that much better than Hodgson's.

 

Edit: at the time we appointed him, I mean

Edited August 30, 2010 by ajams

[Benzo-13]

Just as a side issue, other than Rafa have we ever appointed a manager with a major league title under his belt?

 

I suppose Houllier won a French title with PSG, but I don't really see his CV as all that much better than Hodgson's.

 

Edit: at the time we appointed him, I mean

Souness?? Scotland was still competitive when we appointed him.

[ajams]

Souness?? Scotland was still competitive when we appointed him.

 

Yeah, I suppose, although it was pretty much a two team league and Rangers were throwing money around at the time.

[Stevie H]

I'm always ready for an upgrade so if we get billionaire owners in October and they want to bring in the world's best manager, I'm down with that.

 

If that doesn't happen, then patience is required. I'd like to think I'm mentally resilient enough to give RH the whole season, to see if he's taking us in a positive direction. I did with Rafa in his first, and despite times in 04/05 when things looked much worse than under Houllier, bit by bit Rafa got things together, and by the end of the season the performances in Europe showed that we had a future under that manager.

i don't think it's patience though, i think it's apathy. we've got a new manager, the match is back, let's all go and watch football however it is served up. and then when it's sh*te because we've sold a few of our best players this summer and appointed a manager who is not top class and got a thin squad and made another massive profit in the transfer market, let's just have a wee moan but hope things work out for the best.

 

i know it's where we're at and yes, roy hodgson is likeable and all that. but i don't think that being a likeable bloke, being completely f***ed for budget and doing decent press conferences makes him immune to criticism when it's warranted.

 

I suppose Houllier won a French title with PSG, but I don't really see his CV as all that much better than Hodgson's.

setting up clairefontaine was a pretty large feather in his cap. the france 1994 world cup qualifying campaign not so.

[Benzo-13]

Yeah, I suppose, although it was pretty much a two team league and Rangers were throwing money around at the time.

Souness started that.

Aberdeen and Hearts could still cause upsets back then.

[ajams]

 

setting up clairefontaine was a pretty large feather in his cap. the france 1994 world cup qualifying campaign not so.

 

Indeed, although we still ended up with Rafa having to overhaul the academy. That said I'm sure Houllier did a lot for the infrastructure of the club.

 

By the same token Hodgson surely deserves a bit of respect for getting a vastly less talented Swiss squad to the World Cup?

 

Souness started that.

Aberdeen and Hearts could still cause upsets back then.

 

I think that was also in part down to the European ban on English clubs - Rangers in particular capitalised on that by signing English players.

 

Either way, Souness didn't do a great job for us as manager, despite expectations being high.