For those of you who wanted Rafa out......

[Bromage]

On football forums such as this, sticking your head "above the parapet" can be a dangerous pastime. Over the past 2 years and even when the team were unbeatable during an extended run which included the thrashing of Real Madrid and Man Utd lone voices on here continued to criticise the manager, whilst the majority blamed the owners for their broken promises and lack of support. Is there any moral victory for those who turned against Rafa? Most of us, me included, prefer to remain loyal to the manager in the belief that given the right circumstances Rafa's true class would shine through. There is absolutely no doubt that the vitriolic press have grown more and more frustrated at their inability to force opinion against Rafa. False statistics and double standards have been used in abundance to substantiate their claims and it's no real surprise that eventually even the most loyal followers began to doubt.

 

But the question was that if you were "brave" enough to join these self-interested detractors will you feel good about yourself, will you promote or perhaps reprint your "told you so" postings from the past? Will you bravely run the gauntlet of the majority for "breaking ranks" on a pretext that you were only serving the best interests of the club? Well take heart in the knowledge that your views probably made little if any diffference to the outcome of this saga and the decisions which will be reached by Rafa and others in the next 7 days will have little to do with your opinions.

[magneto]

There are quite a few who feel Rafa is the source of the problems. They feel he's been given enough time. They feel he choose the formation. They feel he chooses the players he wants on the field. They feel he chooses who he brings on as a sub. They feel he is the one who chooses to buy Aquilani ahead of a striker and they feel he has the ultimate responsibility and accountability for results on the pitch. I think everyone of them realises that he has had a limited amount of funds to work with, but they feel he moans too much about off-field activities and attemps to detract his die-hard loyalists away from what happens on the pitch.

 

I don't think they'll be overly happy that he's on the verge of leaving, but I feel many of them would prefer the "$$money$$" go to a better manager who knows what to do with it.

[Davvo]

On football forums such as this, sticking your head "above the parapet" can be a dangerous pastime. Over the past 2 years and even when the team were unbeatable during an extended run which included the thrashing of Real Madrid and Man Utd lone voices on here continued to criticise the manager, whilst the majority blamed the owners for their broken promises and lack of support. Is there any moral victory for those who turned against Rafa? Most of us, me included, prefer to remain loyal to the manager in the belief that given the right circumstances Rafa's true class would shine through. There is absolutely no doubt that the vitriolic press have grown more and more frustrated at their inability to force opinion against Rafa. False statistics and double standards have been used in abundance to substantiate their claims and it's no real surprise that eventually even the most loyal followers began to doubt.

 

But the question was that if you were "brave" enough to join these self-interested detractors will you feel good about yourself, will you promote or perhaps reprint your "told you so" postings from the past? Will you bravely run the gauntlet of the majority for "breaking ranks" on a pretext that you were only serving the best interests of the club? Well take heart in the knowledge that your views probably made little if any diffference to the outcome of this saga and the decisions which will be reached by Rafa and others in the next 7 days will have little to do with your opinions.

 

Billy Graham

[Bromage]

Billy Graham

 

Say what you mean; why be a smart a***?

[Davvo]

Say what you mean; why be a smart a***?

 

Not being smart, that just comes across as holier than thou preaching. Sounds like you are suggesting anyone with anti-Rafa opinions has been influenced by the media, whereas a true supporter would stick by the manager regardless of any failings he may have.

 

It also appears to suggest you think there is a not insubstantial minority of people who are calling for his head". This is patently untrue as far as I can tell. There is a tiny minority who have called for him to go (less than a handful), but a much larger group of people who, at varying points of this disastrous season, have questioned his decisions as manager. Almost to a man, this group state they would in an ideal world see him stay, but have arrived at a point where they wonder whether it may be time for change. This group has grown in number slowly since October, as people with different levels of tolerance and loyalty to the man himself, have reached their "lines in the sand".

 

In short, you appear to be preaching at those who have dared criticise, especially by starting a new thread, when you could just have easily posted your view in the Rafa to Juve thread where everyone is discussing it.

[Bromage]

Not being smart, that just comes across as holier than thou preaching. Sounds like you are suggesting anyone with anti-Rafa opinions has been influenced by the media, whereas a true supporter would stick by the manager regardless of any failings he may have.

 

It also appears to suggest you think there is a not insubstantial minority of people who are calling for his head". This is patently untrue as far as I can tell. There is a tiny minority who have called for him to go (less than a handful), but a much larger group of people who, at varying points of this disastrous season, have questioned his decisions as manager. Almost to a man, this group state they would in an ideal world see him stay, but have arrived at a point where they wonder whether it may be time for change. This group has grown in number slowly since October, as people with different levels of tolerance and loyalty to the man himself, have reached their "lines in the sand".

 

In short, you appear to be preaching at those who have dared criticise, especially by starting a new thread, when you could just have easily posted your view in the Rafa to Juve thread where everyone is discussing it.

 

That's OK, I welcome your opinion; much better than a smart one-liner. ;-)

[Davvo]

That's OK, I welcome your opinion; much better than a smart one-liner. ;-)

 

smart one liner's take less of my time.

[Earl Hafler]

Not being smart, that just comes across as holier than thou preaching. Sounds like you are suggesting anyone with anti-Rafa opinions has been influenced by the media, whereas a true supporter would stick by the manager regardless of any failings he may have.

 

It also appears to suggest you think there is a not insubstantial minority of people who are calling for his head". This is patently untrue as far as I can tell. There is a tiny minority who have called for him to go (less than a handful), but a much larger group of people who, at varying points of this disastrous season, have questioned his decisions as manager. Almost to a man, this group state they would in an ideal world see him stay, but have arrived at a point where they wonder whether it may be time for change. This group has grown in number slowly since October, as people with different levels of tolerance and loyalty to the man himself, have reached their "lines in the sand".

 

In short, you appear to be preaching at those who have dared criticise, especially by starting a new thread, when you could just have easily posted your view in the Rafa to Juve thread where everyone is discussing it.

 

I agree with that.

 

" if you were "brave" enough to join these self-interested detractors " is crap.

[Flight]

I agree with that.

 

" if you were "brave" enough to join these self-interested detractors " is crap.

 

 

I agree. It's never been brave. It's been short sighted.

[Leo No.8]

It also appears to suggest you think there is a not insubstantial minority of people who are calling for his head". This is patently untrue as far as I can tell. There is a tiny minority who have called for him to go (less than a handful), but a much larger group of people who, at varying points of this disastrous season, have questioned his decisions as manager. Almost to a man, this group state they would in an ideal world see him stay, but have arrived at a point where they wonder whether it may be time for change. This group has grown in number slowly since October, as people with different levels of tolerance and loyalty to the man himself, have reached their "lines in the sand".

 

Spot on this Davvo.

 

I think anyone who isn't at least asking questions of Rafa after watching us regularly this season is kidding themselves to be honest. I'd still rather he stay but I wonder whether that isn't me being a bit sentimental. My heart says I want him to stay but I think my head feels its time for a change.

 

I'm fairly indifferent as to whether he decides to go to Juve. The main thing I'm looking for in the papers is takeover news because that really is far and away the biggest thing at this point in time, the importance of getting rid of Hicks and Gillett dwarfs the importance of the manager staying.

 

We've got the best keeper in the league, arguably the best attacking and defensive midfielders and the best out and out striker in the league and we're seventh. I know its not as simplistic as that; the squad is very thin and injuries have damaged us, but we really should have done a lot better than we have regardless.

 

I still don't think the people getting stuck into him ages ago were 'right' though. I think at the end of a dreadful season in which Rafa has got a lot wrong is the right time to start asking questions. Half way through the season I don't think a change would have helped, and he deserved at least until the summer to turn it round.

 

I'd like to see him get another go at it under better circumstances, but part of me also yearns for a change. I think its the type of football we've played this season rather than our league position that makes me feel that way. We've played in some truly horrific matches against poor sides and been incredibly negative away from home.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Leo No.8

[John am Rhein]

My heart says I want him to stay but I think my head feels its time for a change.

 

sounds like your heart and head are the wrong way round

[blago]

On football forums such as this, sticking your head "above the parapet" can be a dangerous pastime. Over the past 2 years and even when the team were unbeatable during an extended run which included the thrashing of Real Madrid and Man Utd lone voices on here continued to criticise the manager, whilst the majority blamed the owners for their broken promises and lack of support. Is there any moral victory for those who turned against Rafa? Most of us, me included, prefer to remain loyal to the manager in the belief that given the right circumstances Rafa's true class would shine through. There is absolutely no doubt that the vitriolic press have grown more and more frustrated at their inability to force opinion against Rafa. False statistics and double standards have been used in abundance to substantiate their claims and it's no real surprise that eventually even the most loyal followers began to doubt.

 

But the question was that if you were "brave" enough to join these self-interested detractors will you feel good about yourself, will you promote or perhaps reprint your "told you so" postings from the past? Will you bravely run the gauntlet of the majority for "breaking ranks" on a pretext that you were only serving the best interests of the club? Well take heart in the knowledge that your views probably made little if any diffference to the outcome of this saga and the decisions which will be reached by Rafa and others in the next 7 days will have little to do with your opinions.

 

I empathise with your frustration. I still believe Rafa is a world class manager and will be sad to see him go. I believe he could be a success in any league.

 

This season however has been poor and we have underperformed although some will argue that Rafa's use of funds failed to leave us with a proper back up for Torres I believe he would have addressed this issue had he not had the rug pulled from under him in the summer.

 

I think from day one there was a feeling amongst both players and staff of being undermined and not supported by the owners and they felt helpless to do anything about it so they resigned to work with the resource available but their enthusiasm had been dampened.

 

Should Rafa have been better able to motivate himself and the players for the fight to finish as high as possible in these circumstances? Perhaps, but losing key players for long periods - especially Torres made it difficult for us to have the cutting edge required to break teams down.

 

Regarding the use of Aquilani over Lucas I believe it is only in the couple of months that Aquilani has started to show that he can play full matches. He is starting to look the part now and I believe he will be a good player for us next season.

 

The bottom line is that our rivals strengthened significantly in the summer and we were weakened. Some believe that Alonso would not have left if Rafa had not tried to sell him in the summer of 2008 but I think it is very possible he and his Wife wanted to return to Spain regardless and money was also a consideration.

 

In summary I believe that Rafa now feels and has probably felt for some time that he doesn't need the stress of trying to work with his hands tied behind his back. I don't blame him at all and would not want him to stay if he is not happy here.

 

The best we can hope for if for the yanks to sell sooner rather than later and for the board to appoint a good successor. I'm not overly optimistic that this will happen but let's wait and see.

[Stevie H]

I empathise with your frustration. I still believe Rafa is a world class manager and will be sad to see him go. I believe he could be a success in any league.

he undoubtedly still is a world class manager and also still a relatively young one. if he leaves us this summer i expect him to go on to much success elsewhere.

 

it's sad that we're going to lose a top class manager having had a poor season after a summer where he needed backing at a crucial stage of his tenure and he simply wasn't.

[pipnasty]

 

I'm fairly indifferent as to whether he decides to go to Juve. The main thing I'm looking for in the papers is takeover news because that really is far and away the biggest thing at this point in time, the importance of getting rid of Hicks and Gillett dwarfs the importance of the manager staying.

 

We've got the best keeper in the league, arguably the best attacking and defensive midfielders and the best out and out striker in the league and we're seventh. I know its not as simplistic as that; the squad is very thin and injuries have damaged us, but we really should have done a lot better than we have regardless.

 

 

When people began talking a few years ago about the club financially imploding, it was pretty obvious that what happened off the pitch would eventually effect what happened on the pitch. Players and manager would underperform, players would talk about leaving and we, as fans, would squabble over whose fault it all was (some have argued that it is Rafa's fault and some have even tried to argue that it is Gerrard's fault). Torres was absolutely right when he says that everybody needs to pull in the right direction if we are going to succeed in this and it is pretty clear that not everybody is. Our collective heads haven't been with it all season and won't until the future and direction of this club is sorted out. Did people genuinely believe that we were going to win the league with all of the chaos going on behind the scenes? I posted something a few months ago that appeared to show a correlation between clubs falling apart off the pitch and then subsequently underperforming on the pitch. Leeds are a really good example of this.

[Earl Hafler]

I agree. It's never been brave. It's been short sighted.

 

 

Just as it was short sighted to want Houllier to leave ? That was bad, as it was like watching him undo all the great work he'd done before, but i'd had more doubts about Ged than Rafa and so this season has been worse for me personally. I really thought Rafa was the man, and to realise or decide that he isn't was tough.

These aren't decisions you take credit for, this isn't about being able to say " I told you so " but some of the crap being thrown the way of DH, Wayne, Mike, Rimbeux, myself and others has been laughable.

 

I'm convinced there are others that have come to the same conclusions but refuse to admit it because of the repeated arguments they've had with us. Many times it's become personal.

 

Giving the owners the majority of the blame for on-the-pitch difficulties is " short sighted "

[pipnasty]

 

I still don't think the people getting stuck into him ages ago were 'right' though. I think at the end of a dreadful season in which Rafa has got a lot wrong is the right time to start asking questions. Half way through the season I don't think a change would have helped, and he deserved at least until the summer to turn it round.

 

 

I think some people have had the knives out for him for years even after he was part of our best team for 20 years last season. I think there will be much gloating (as there is already) when he does eventually leave.

 

I agree. It's never been brave. It's been short sighted.

 

I agree. And I hope it leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the majority for a long time to come. You know, when the chips are really down and all that.........

[Stevie H]

 

I'm convinced there are others that have come to the same conclusions but refuse to admit it because of the repeated arguments they've had with us. Many times it's become personal.

 

i think you have a massively overstated sense of your own importance.

[Earl Hafler]

i think you have a massively overstated sense of your own importance.

 

 

You've said similar to DH. What self importance ?! I'm saying that, because of arguments which have become personal, others are refusing to admit they have strong doubts.

 

f*** all to do with vanity

 

 

 

 

I agree. And I hope it leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the majority for a long time to come. You know, when the chips are really down and all that.........

 

Blasphemers !!!!!!!

[gkmacca]

We'll be unlikely to get in as good a manager as Houllier now. That's what depresses me. And some people seem to think all of this is some sort of 'triumph'.

[Stevie H]

You've said similar to DH. What self importance ?! I'm saying that, because of arguments which have become personal, others are refusing to admit they have strong doubts.

 

f*** all to do with vanity

you seem to be implying that your constant moaning on a forum would somehow influence other people's opinions and their likelihood of expressing them. it's an internet forum, it's a load of old b*llocks. get over yourself.

 

you're also forgetting that absolutely every other poster on here apart from possibly mfletcher has admitted plenty of times that they have doubts. it is vanity.

[Benzo-13]

We'll be unlikely to get in as good a manager as Houllier now. That's what depresses me. And some people seem to think all of this is some sort of 'triumph'.

Yep.

Today is our footballing darkest hour.

I really can't believe the road we're headed..

[bipjohn]

We'll be unlikely to get in as good a manager as Houllier now. That's what depresses me. And some people seem to think all of this is some sort of 'triumph'.

 

That is the problem that nobody here, on phone ins and in the media seem to be able to address.

 

When you sack a manager (or lose him or force him out) the replacement you have in mind has to be better

 

Have you seen anything with Rafa's pedigree in the list of replacement's?

 

O Neill, no thank you, Clough/Forest connections and poor Football

Hodgson, too old and never thrived in bigger clubs

Maureen, he will not come here unless he has his 'usual' £100m, and if you think Rafa is negative, Maureen's football is dire at times

Mark Hughes, Husesless, Manc enough said.

McLeish, no thanks, not good enough

Dalglish, clearly a legend but last managed a club 20 years ago

Hiddink, Turkey Manager, never going to come

Van Gaal, No chance, at Bayern

Jol, did great at Spurs!

Sammy Lee, sorry but not big enough or experienced enough

John Toshack, scraping the barrell now

 

Feel free to prove me wrong and tell me who can do a better job?

 

Torres this season 20 games 18 goals. The team this season 54 games, Torres misses 34 games, can anyone do the math?

 

Rafa's mistake has been no back up for Torres and I am sure he is fully aware of this.

[Earl Hafler]

you seem to be implying that your constant moaning on a forum would somehow influence other people's opinions.

 

Where i have i said or implied that then ?

 

" constant moaning ". Awesome. Like you've been lavishing the team with praise during this hell of a season.

[bipjohn]

Sorry, missed out Steve Mclaren......again enough said.

[Stevie H]

Where i have i said or implied that then ?

 

" constant moaning ". Awesome. Like you've been lavishing the team with praise during this hell of a season.

 

"I'm convinced there are others that have come to the same conclusions but refuse to admit it because of the repeated arguments they've had with us".

 

like i said, overblown sense of your own opinion's importance. it's an internet forum. plus you also ignored my mentioning that pretty much everyone has had their moans on here about the manager in your desperation to be proven 'right'.