Great tactical managers

[New York Red]

Who would you say the best in the business are? I was watching the Scum today and it just occurred to me that I don't think Rednose is particularly good tactically. He f*cking shouts a lot and he runs a good organization, but he doesn't strike me as being a particular help to his team.

[_00_deathscar]

Yea, you're right. He's a detriment to his team. Just imagine what Manchester United would have achieved had he not been there the last 20 years. Ruined them he did...

[John am Rhein]

People with Latin names like

 

Helenio Herrera http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helenio_Herrera

Osvaldo Zubeldia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osvaldo_Zubeld%C3%ADa

Rafael Benitez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Ben%C3%ADtez

[fyds]

Who would you say the best in the business are? I was watching the Scum today and it just occurred to me that I don't think Rednose is particularly good tactically. He f*cking shouts a lot and he runs a good organization, but he doesn't strike me as being a particular help to his team.

I know what you mean up to a point. He has this high tempo approach, not unlike the traditional Liverpool pass and move routine but with less finesse - possibly because throughout the team there is not the overall great sense of touch that the best Liverpool exponents had from front to back and that we showed in substantial chunks last year. Also, the core of his team, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Ferdinand, Brown, Neville, O'Shea have all been together for a long time - some of the others have been around a while too now - continuity always helps to some degree.

 

He does seem lacking in ideas other than loading the top end though if he is successfully stimied in this approach - teams that close him down and run some of his less able and older campaigners a bit ragged - oddly, that 'team so easy on the eye' Arsenal, don't seem to have to have worked this out, and yet undoubtedly Rafa has. The trick it seems is to play the eleven men and not the reputation - even when the eleven is 12 - though Rafa seems to have worked well at spiking that one where we at least are concerned. What it relies on then is the opposing team doing all this pressing as above, while maintaing some semblenece of their own high tempo pass and move game - again, we seem to have got them bang to rights on this of late.

 

The fact he has had more money and for longer than most, harrangues (and to some large extent gets his way with) the official bodies, intimidates the opposition who turn up expecting to lose in the knowledge of the above and who seem to accept the tabloid view of him as the greatest ever manager etc (to the point some see no point in fielding a proper team, eh, Mr McCarthy?) has also no doubt helped him over the years.

[Stevie H]

Who would you say the best in the business are? I was watching the Scum today and it just occurred to me that I don't think Rednose is particularly good tactically. He f*cking shouts a lot and he runs a good organization, but he doesn't strike me as being a particular help to his team.

he realised quicker than anyone else what worked best in english football, high tempo, high pressure football and then signed and developed key and young players on a regular basis to fit into his obvious style of play which has won him oodles of trophies. he also has a happy knack of changing games from draws into wins, however much we might believe that referees help him. slightly more to him than shouting a lot.

[John am Rhein]

Ferguson's teams only really became successful after the back-pass rule was changed? Coincidence or a factor which worked in favour of the high-tempo style of play?

[Earl Hafler]

he realised quicker than anyone else what worked best in english football, high tempo, high pressure football and then signed and developed key and young players on a regular basis to fit into his obvious style of play which has won him oodles of trophies. he also has a happy knack of changing games from draws into wins, however much we might believe that referees help him. slightly more to him than shouting a lot.

 

 

His mid 90's side though was similar to what we'd had several years earlier. Keeper with the ability to launch a counter attack with throws ( might be wrong, but i don't think it was as common back then ), a 4-4-1-1 formation

[mally]

Who would you say the best in the business are? I was watching the Scum today and it just occurred to me that I don't think Rednose is particularly good tactically. He f*cking shouts a lot and he runs a good organization, but he doesn't strike me as being a particular help to his team.

 

Crazy statement. We all hate him, but to dismiss all the premiership titles he's won including the last three on the bounce as being the result of 'shouting' is, frankly, luducrous.

[Mr. Biscan]

The only one that springs to mind for me is Benitez, but I don't think he is all that great of a tactician.

[Stevie H]

Ferguson's teams only really became successful after the back-pass rule was changed? Coincidence or a factor which worked in favour of the high-tempo style of play?

i think it was probably a factor that influenced his thinking, yeah. what year did that come in? bearing in mind he signed the first really outstanding goalkeeper of the modern era for next to f*** all.

 

The only one that springs to mind for me is Benitez, but I don't think he is all that great of a tactician.

apparently he thinks you're a fantastic forum poster as it goes.

[Rimbeux]

I think he's actually pretty open minded despite the cover. The tactical thing he does pretty much comes down to matching the oppo formation and backing his players to win their battles.

 

However the trend that leaps out is how he changes with the times, things like going with the Roma idea of no fixed forward a couple of years back on the way to winning the league and champions league, the switching of Rooney and Ronaldo and using players like Park, Fletcher and Hargreaves wide to counter the threat of attacking fullbacks, show he's not just an up and at them shouter.

[John am Rhein]

Crazy statement. We all hate him, but to dismiss all the premiership titles he's won including the last three on the bounce as being the result of 'shouting' is, frankly, luducrous.

 

I think it's fair to say it's much more down to motivation and choosing players of strong character than it is to tactics, however.

 

The only one that springs to mind for me is Benitez, but I don't think he is all that great of a tactician.

 

so the ones that don't spring to mind - they'd be the great tacticians?

[Red Kent]

With top players I think you need to be more of a motivator than a tactician.

[New York Red]

he realised quicker than anyone else what worked best in english football, high tempo, high pressure football and then signed and developed key and young players on a regular basis to fit into his obvious style of play which has won him oodles of trophies. he also has a happy knack of changing games from draws into wins, however much we might believe that referees help him. slightly more to him than shouting a lot.

 

I agree with you totally. He is unquestionably a massive success and he has a great system in place which he put in place. He knows his strategy and it works. Part of that strategy is intimidating refs. Part of that strategy is putting the fear of God into his players. It is also not tolerating any sort of discontent in criticism from any of his players and in signing loads of good young players and trying them on the team rather than leaving them languish in the reserves.

 

But as far as tactics are concerned in an individual game it isn't his strong point. He could never have done what Rafa did in Istanbul.

[MFletcher]

With top players I think you need to be more of a motivator than a tactician.

 

Aye, chest beating and shouting is what got us to Istanbul and turned the final itself around. Tactics had very little to do with it.

Edited March 7, 2010 by MFletcher

[Red Kent]

Aye, chest beating and shouting is what got us to Istanbul and turned the final itself around. Tactics had very little to do with it.

 

Tactics did, Traore was coming off wasn't he ?

[MFletcher]

Aye, and Rafa's tactical acumen ensured he was able to react to an unforeseen circumstance. He didn't go up to Djimi and shout 'you were coming off, but you're a top player! Go out and have these!!'

 

Tactics are far, far more important than motivation.

Edited March 7, 2010 by MFletcher

[John am Rhein]

Tactics are far, far more important than motivation.

 

don't think that's true in general, but it may well have been on that particular occasion

[Rimbeux]

Aye, and Rafa's tactical acumen ensured he was able to react to an unforeseen circumstance. He didn't go up to Djimi and shout 'you were coming off, but you're a top player! Go out and have these!!'

Tactics are far, far more important than motivation.

 

 

Not sure about that at all. Without the right incentives in place for your people, your plans will not work and visa versa, they are hand in glove.

[MFletcher]

It doesn't matter how motivated the players are. If they don't know their role, the setup, how to defend, areas of weakness to pinpoint, the tactics for defending set pieces etc. etc. then they're f***ed and the other team will walk through them.

 

Motivation is important, but the amount of organisational work that goes into setting a side up is far and away more important than what is said in the ten minutes before the game starts.

[Rimbeux]

It doesn't matter how motivated the players are. If they don't know their role, the setup, how to defend, areas of weakness to pinpoint, the tactics for defending set pieces etc. etc. then they're f***ed and the other team will walk through them.

 

Motivation is important, but the amount of organisational work that goes into setting a side up is far and away more important than what is said in the ten minutes before the game starts.

 

 

I'd say you dont really understand the concept of motivation, it's not just about what is said 10 minutes before the match anymore than tactics are just about where you stand at kick off, it's the entire belief system upon which you lay your plans.

[MFletcher]

Motivation is worth f*** all if you can't tally it with an effectively organised side. It doesn't matter how motivated the side are - if they don't understand their roles and what they're supposed to do in attack and defence then they're going nowhere.

[Rimbeux]

Motivation is worth f*** all if you can't tally it with an effectively organised side. It doesn't matter how motivated the side are - if they don't understand their roles and what they're supposed to do in attack and defence then they're going nowhere.

 

And if they dont believe in what they are being told to do or dont want to do it, your plans are worth f*** all, they are hand in glove and as important as each other.

[MFletcher]

In the instance you describe, 'motivation' is contingent on tactics. Thus if the tactics are good, motivaiton is good. If the tactics are bad, motivation is bad.

 

This would make tactics the central consideration in a manager's plans as it would hold significant influence over other aspects of management. So get your tactics right, the players will buy into, believe in it and motivation will increase. If you don't get your tactics right to begin with, then you're in bother.

Edited March 7, 2010 by MFletcher

[Rimbeux]

In the instance you describe, 'motivation' is contingent on tactics. Thus if the tactics are good, motivaiton is good. If the tactics are bad, motivation is bad.

 

This would make tactics the central consideration in a manager's plans as it would hold significant influence over other aspects of management. So get your tactics right, the players will buy into, believe in it and motivation will increase. If you don't get your tactics right to begin with, then you're in bother.

 

 

You can quite easily spin it round the other way and recognise that even if you are tactically spot on, if the players wont or cant get behind them you wont succeed. This goes beyond football and into life and work itself, people operate on motivation, incentives, and that dictates how they do or dont go about the actions and choices they have to make.