Play offs for fourth place

[Hodgson for Chelsea]

Premier League plans play-off for last Champions League place• Team as low as seventh could be given chance to qualify

• Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool object

The Premier League is considering introducing a play-off system to determine the fourth club to qualify for the following season's European Champions League.

 

Currently the club which finishes fourth goes through but the new proposal would mean a play-off between the clubs finishing fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The intention is to inject more competition into a league in which qualification has for years remained in the hands of the same four clubs.

 

Premier League sources have confirmed that the play-off proposal was presented at the most recent meeting of all clubs, on 4 February, and the league's chief executive, Richard Scudamore, was authorised to return with further details in April.

 

It is understood that the idea was enthusiastically supported by all clubs – except the so-called big four of Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool. Scudamore, and the league's secretary, Mike Foster, will examine the practicalities of how a play-off system could work: whether it should take the form of a home-and-away knockout system, similar to that in the Football League, or incorporate seeding. They will also look into when matches could be fitted into a crowded fixture calendar before making recommendations.

 

The idea was presented as part of the Premier League's strategic review of its format and operations and springs from two particular motivations. The first is to crack the problem of England's top league becoming less open and competitive, with the richest clubs, Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, having strengthened their hold on the top four places over several years. One league source said it was an odd twist that the idea has been raised now, in a season when Liverpool's claim to the fourth place is being seriously challenged.

 

The response among clubs outside the top four is understood to have been positive, with some believing that a play-off system would create more competitive matches and give more clubs a prize to challenge for. Most clubs now feel they have no chance of attaining fourth place but almost the whole Premier League could be brought into a competition to finish seventh and make it to the play-offs. The medium-sized clubs, which increasingly aspire to break the cartel, are said to have been enthusiastic, seeing play-offs as a great opportunity.

 

The big four, who have been qualifying on merit at the end of each season and reaping the footballing and financial rewards of Champions League participation are understood to have been less keen. Self-interest is clearly a factor, with those clubs concerned about protecting their own advantages. However, there is also a feeling that the league should be more sophisticated about addressing its major challenges, particularly the financial ones, rather than incorpor-ating an awkward play-off system for a prize as ostensibly moderate as fourth place.

 

The other motivation for the play-offs is a waning of the proposal for an international round of matches, dubbed "Game 39", which was widely criticised for lacking coherence and being territorially expansionist. The play-offs would mean extra matches, which would be sold to pay-television and so generate more money for all clubs.

 

The consistent qualification of the same four clubs, widely seen as stifling competition, is not replicated across Europe. The Premier League largely blames the Uefa Champions League money, distributed to participating clubs, for entrenching the big four's financial power. Uefa, however, points out that Champions League income represents a small part, 8–13%, of Manchester United's, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and Liverpool's total turnover. Most of the big clubs' money is made in this country; Premier League television income is relatively evenly distributed but United, Chelsea and Arsenal in particular make much more than their nearest rivals from commercial activities and match-day revenues in the Premier League.

 

The Dutch league tried a play-off system for the second Champions League qualification place but abandoned it after the 2007-08 season, when FC Twente Enschede beat Ajax 2-1. The issues in Holland were the risk of crowd trouble at such high-stakes matches and a perception that the play-offs were one-sided.

 

In the Premier League there is some confidence that neither of those would present major problems. As a means of encouraging competition, opportunities and increasing income, the play-off proposal already seems to have enough support to suggest it could gain the necessary 14-6 majority to be implemented.

 

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Based on the continuing investment at Citeh and Spurs surely we have to be in favour of this? The way things are going City are well on track to become number 4 in the top four, so surely this helps us if G & H remain at the club and don't get investment?

[Red Kent]

Great idea, another three games to fit in at the end of the season, followed by an international tournament every other year and then join the CL qualifiers a few weeks later.

 

This idea will come in as it benefits those who would normally have no chance of finishing in the top three/four.

[Zoob]

  On 15/02/2010 at 04:17, Kev said:

Great idea, another three games to fit in at the end of the season, followed by an international tournament every other year and then join the CL qualifiers a few weeks later.

 

This idea will come in as it benefits those who would normally have no chance of finishing in the top three/four.

 

Exactly.

 

Horrible, horrible idea. - In some years, the gap between 4th and 7th can be approaching 20 points. combine that with the standard of refereeing, and suddenly you can get rubbish teams who have had completely mediocre seasons qualify for the CL on the basis of a couple of games and or a couple of key refereeing decisions go their way.

 

How about a play off where the final relegation spot is decided by play offs including teams that have finished 20 points clear of the relegation zone...

[John am Rhein]

If Everton finish 4th there should be playoffs to give someone else the chance to qualify instead of them. Otherwise the 4th placed team should qualify automatically without a playoff.

[Hassony]

why only fourth? why not include 2nd and 3rd as well?

 

I bet Scudamore will next suggest that these play off games should be played in asia

[Damian_de]

Haha, f***ing hell. When is a league not a league?

 

edit: Sky must be jizzing.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Damian_de

[Hodgson for Chelsea]

  On 15/02/2010 at 08:17, Hassony said:

why only fourth? why not include 2nd and 3rd as well?

 

I bet Scudamore will next suggest that these play off games should be played in asia

 

Of course they will - that's part of the way around the final game objections. A final game in Singapore between Spurs and Liverpool would cause a frenzy out there.

 

If we don't cap salaries we have to come up with more ways of making more money. You cant have your cake and eat it.

 

Should this go ahead and City progress the way they are going I think we'll be very grateful for this idea.

[Chili Palmer]

This idea is so wrong. Scudamore is the king of wrongness.

[Rimbeux]

As others have said the season is long enough. It also pretty much takes the pressure of a few clubs early as they know they will be top seven by easter and probably wont take the top three. For example this season you could call the four teams now, with a third of the season to go; most of the time you'd only have one, max two positions in debate by now. Makes the league pointless.

 

If the idea is to open up the 4th slot to more teams, maybe make the two cup winners play off for the CL, with 4th if one also made top three, or give it to 4th if they both did.

[Gilps]

  On 15/02/2010 at 09:20, Rimbeux said:

If the idea is to open up the 4th slot to more teams, maybe make the two cup winners play off for the CL, with 4th if one also made top three, or give it to 4th if they both did.

 

If they really feel the need to do something to shake it up, I'd prefer them to give it to the cup winners. Given how rarely over the past 20 years the cup winners haven't been one of the 'big 4' though, it's debateable how big a shake up would actually be achieved.

[Maldini]

Let the race for 7th hype begin!

[Rimbeux]

  On 15/02/2010 at 09:29, Gilps said:

If they really feel the need to do something to shake it up, I'd prefer them to give it to the cup winners. Given how rarely over the past 20 years the cup winners haven't been one of the 'big 4' though, it's debateable how big a shake up would actually be achieved.

 

This is true. I think there is something in the idea that the bigger clubs are capable of keeping a high league position and pushing for cups, whilst there is a paranoia about being in too many competitions and not having the squad to keep the league going for many clubs.

 

So many clubs put out weaker teams in cups as standard that I think it's weakened those competitions and made it easier for big clubs to dominate them. The game overall would probably benefit from raising the importance (yes financial) of the cups, of actually winning things

[Damian_de]

How about a massive play off. Take, say, 20 of the best teams in the country, then have everyone play everyone home and away. I know that would take a while, about 8-9 months perhaps, but by the end you could say the top 4 go on to play the best sides from other countries who do the same thing?

[Hassony]

The winner of the FA cup (or runner up if the winner is from the top 3, or 5th placed team if the runner up is also from the top 3 )vs the winner of the league cup (or the 6th placed team)

 

the winner to play a one off game away to the fouth placed team

 

 

I don't know what will happen if the fourth placed team also happens to win the fa cup and the league cup

 

 

Is it true that the winner of the europa cup gains automatic qualifications into the CL this season?

[Gilps]

  On 15/02/2010 at 09:38, Rimbeux said:

So many clubs put out weaker teams in cups as standard that I think it's weakened those competitions and made it easier for big clubs to dominate them. The game overall would probably benefit from raising the importance (yes financial) of the cups, of actually winning things

 

This is definitelty true. In an era where (sadly) finances trump all sporting considerations, you're only going to make the cups a genuine priority if the financial rewards of doing well in them are in the same ball park as the finances involved in league football.

[Andy @ Allerton]

  On 15/02/2010 at 09:29, Gilps said:

If they really feel the need to do something to shake it up, I'd prefer them to give it to the cup winners. Given how rarely over the past 20 years the cup winners haven't been one of the 'big 4' though, it's debateable how big a shake up would actually be achieved.

 

 

Is a much better idea. Top 3 and FA Cup winners would bring some credibility to that cup which was destroyed when the Mancs decided they couldn't be arsed with it.

[floyd]

How about Scudamore pushing the idea of a live televised game of Russian Roulette between the relevant clubs owners. Think of the TV money that would generate, it's a no brainer

[Bailo]

I'm already sickened by the idea of us settling for 7th.

[Gilps]

  On 15/02/2010 at 09:45, The Angry Moose said:

Is a much better idea. Top 3 and FA Cup winners would bring some credibility to that cup which was destroyed when the Mancs decided they couldn't be arsed with it.

 

The effects of the Mancs withdrawing that year as a factor in declining interest in the cup are overstated. The real reason the cup has declined is thatclubs would rather focus on achieving survival in the league, or qualifying for Europe. Which is entirely down to the finances involved.

[DanielS]

  On 15/02/2010 at 09:45, The Angry Moose said:

Is a much better idea. Top 3 and FA Cup winners would bring some credibility to that cup which was destroyed when the Mancs decided they couldn't be arsed with it.

 

To be fair to them the FA did put them in an untenable position. We are also one of the few countries in world football that fetishises its main cup competition to the extent we do. I doubt that UEFA would ever buy into a cup competition winner getting access to their bucket of gold though.

Edited February 15, 2010 by DanielS

[Hassony]

  On 15/02/2010 at 09:49, Gilps said:

The effects of the Mancs withdrawing that year as a factor in declining interest in the cup are overstated. The real reason the cup has declined is thatclubs would rather focus on achieving survival in the league, or qualifying for Europe. Which is entirely down to the finances involved.

 

what I don't get is why teams who spend the whole season trying to qualify for the europa cup, than play their reserve in that competition and get knocked out

[Buzz]

Did a tour of the Ajax Stadium and they had a massive banner in English which said "f*** the Playoffs" permanently draped over one balcony. Got Surf to explain it all to me over in the Gerneral Footie Forum, it went a lot further than just playing for the extra CL spot, it was mental.

[Rimbeux]

  On 15/02/2010 at 10:00, Hassony said:

what I don't get is why teams who spend the whole season trying to qualify for the europa cup, than play their reserve in that competition and get knocked out

 

Just gives the manager clout to expand his squad whilst having something to crow about, "I took us into Europe'. Winning something is becoming a secondary aim.

[floyd]

Premier League whoring itself again, I see

[lfc003]

  On 15/02/2010 at 04:17, Kev said:

Great idea, another three games to fit in at the end of the season, followed by an international tournament every other year and then join the CL qualifiers a few weeks later.

 

This idea will come in as it benefits those who would normally have no chance of finishing in the top three/four.

 

Correct