Rafas Transfer Record

[Flight]

I posted in another thread that Rafa has only spent £80mill, net, since he has been here on transfers.

 

 

i) We only have three players left that Rafa inherited, who are good enough and either aren't too old or crocked. That includes Sami, who will be 36 this year.

 

ii) In short Rafa has had to buy two players for every position on the pitch, and build the youth team and the reserve team. With a budget of £80mill over 5 years.

 

 

Players Bought

 

Players Sold

 

 

 

I mentioned this on another thread and someone quoted Wenger, so lets look at that.

 

 

If we are considering player and transfer costs then we have to include wage costs. Fortunately, we have an impeccable source - Deloittes annual review of football finances. These are the annual wage bills for the top four :

 

Chelsea - £114m

Manchester Utd - £85m

Arsenal - £83m

Liverpool - £69m

 

Arsenals has actually fallen by £6.7mill from £89.7mill the previous year.

 

 

In short, the difference between our wage bill and Arsenals over the last five years alone is actually more than Rafa has had given to him to buy players. That is before you consider what Wenger has spent on players and the demise of their team.

[Flight]

As an aside, Thomkins posted the purchases and buys on his offal blog last week, but he did his sums wrong and suggested Rafas spend was £120mill not £80mill. He has pointed this out and apologized for it.

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

This is what used to be called a Romario, back in the day.

[WillG]

This is what used to be called a Romario, back in the day.

 

*wipes away tear* Those were the days

[Flight]

This is what used to be called a Romario, back in the day.

 

 

The players bought and sold I posted in another thread, but I think this is important enough to not be lost in another, lengthy thread. And the wage costs hadn't been considered.

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

I think this is important enough to not be lost in another, lengthy thread.

 

not to be all Banders about it, but that's exactly what Romario used to do.

[Flight]

not to be all Banders about it, but that's exactly what Romario used to do.

 

 

Fair enough mate. The point wasn't so much that Rafa has only had £80mill over 5 seasons, but that the difference between our wage bill and Arsenals alone is more than that. Been reading up on it this morning and came here to make the thread, so didn't realise the debate had developed or even been taken up.

 

 

I've copied the relevant bits to the Gillett thread. Mods feel free to move or delete this

[Flasher]

Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004

Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004

Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005

Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005

Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005

Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005

Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005

Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005

Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005

Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006

Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006

Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006

Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006

Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006

Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006

Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007

Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007

Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007

Robbie Keane Tottenham £19,000,000 28.07.2008

 

What worries me is this. All the above were recruited for the 1st team squad, and none of them are still here.

 

£66.4m wasted?

[nrkintheuk]

Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004

Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004

Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005

Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005

Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005

Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005

Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005

Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005

Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005

Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006

Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006

Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006

Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006

Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006

Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006

Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007

Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007

Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007

Robbie Keane Tottenham £19,000,000 28.07.2008

 

What worries me is this. All the above were recruited for the 1st team squad, and none of them are still here.

 

£66.4m wasted?

 

Fabio Aurelio isn't here any more? The rest is disingenuous at best - profits were made on Crouch, Sissoko, Bellamy and Carson, possibly a few others too I can't remember the outgoing fee for Gonzalez. I can do that too.... Voronin, Itandje & Pennant are still club players so strike them from the list! Actually we'll probably turn a profit on Voronin too.

[Chili Palmer]

Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004

Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004

Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005

Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005

Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005

Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005

Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005

Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005

Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005

Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006

Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006

Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006

Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006

Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006

Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006

Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007

Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007

Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007

Robbie Keane Tottenham £19,000,000 28.07.2008

 

What worries me is this. All the above were recruited for the 1st team squad, and none of them are still here.

 

£66.4m wasted?

 

not really, some of it is obviously but every manager buys the odd duffer but in general you have to build the level of the squad up in steps.

[Stanley Leisure]

Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004

Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004

Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005

Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005

Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005

Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005

Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005

Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005

Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005

Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006

Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006

Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006

Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006

Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006

Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006

Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007

Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007

Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007

Robbie Keane Tottenham £19,000,000 28.07.2008

 

What worries me is this. All the above were recruited for the 1st team squad, and none of them are still here.

 

£66.4m wasted?

[Boca]

Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004

Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004

Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004

Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005

Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005

Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005

Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005

Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005

Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005

Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005

Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006

Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006

Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006

Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield £2,000,000 04.07.2006

Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006

Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006

Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007

Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007

Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007

Robbie Keane Tottenham £19,000,000 28.07.2008

 

What worries me is this. All the above were recruited for the 1st team squad, and none of them are still here.

 

£66.4m wasted?

 

 

All the hightlighted players are either still here, out on loan, bought for free, or sold on for a profit. Not to mention Garcia who justified his fee and more while he was here and helped land Torres when he left

[Eskimo]

Aurelio is still here as is Leto, well sort of.

 

You could argue that Garcia, Momo, Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant, Zenden all did a job when here and that accounts for £31.3m of that figure, plus we made money on most of them. May even make a few quid on Voro/Pennant.

 

Keane is the only obvious stand out from that list. So you could say £35.1m wasted and £19m of that is his fee alone.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Eskimo

[Hassony]

What worries me is this. All the above were recruited for the 1st team squad, and none of them are still here.

 

£66.4m wasted?

 

 

how did you come up with £66.4m?

[Mikey]

Fabio Aurelio isn't here any more? The rest is disingenuous at best - profits were made on Crouch, Sissoko, Bellamy and Carson, possibly a few others too I can't remember the outgoing fee for Gonzalez. I can do that too.... Voronin, Itandje & Pennant are still club players so strike them from the list! Actually we'll probably turn a profit on Voronin too.

Is that still true after you take into account wages, signing on fees and selling pay-offs as well?

 

Bearing in mind that this thread was started explicitly to factor all the other expenses into player costs as well as actual buying costs?

[Flight]

not really, some of it is obviously but every manager buys the odd duffer but in general you have to build the level of the squad up in steps.

 

 

 

Spot on. Exactly what Rafa has done - exactly what Rafa has been forced to do, because of a limited budget and the massive job that needed (and still needs) doing.

 

We have the best first 11 in two decades, personified by their display in their first appearance together this term, against Real Madrid. We can expect to push on and improve not just the first 11, but the squad.

[Flasher]

Well spotted Re Aurelio - obviously shouldn't be there.

 

As for the free or the out on loan players - the free ones were paid wages, and the ones out on loan aren't coming back to stay. Should also notice that i've not included those on loan that will come back like Hamill or Hobbs etc.

 

Voronin and Pennant will not be staying, that's pretty obvious. For me, it's not the expense anyway, it's the volume of players. Far to many have failed.

 

I've stated many times I'm a Rafa fan and would give him a ten year contract, but he's weak in the transfer market in my opinion. Either that or his scouts are not that good.

 

The above list doesn't include Lucas or Dossena for example, both of whom cost good money but struggle in our league. Same for Babel.

 

I'd just prefer Rafa to stick with what he's got a little more, and wait for the right players. This level of turnover never helps a squad.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Flasher

[Chili Palmer]

Is that still true after you take into account wages, signing on fees and selling pay-offs as well?

 

Bearing in mind that this thread was started explicitly to factor all the other expenses into player costs as well as actual buying costs?

 

 

if you decide to take wages into account then Rafa has done even better than I thought considering the differences in wages paid by the top 4 as stated earlier.

[Chili Palmer]

I'd just prefer Rafa to stick with what he's got a little more, and wait for the right players. This level of turnover never helps a squad.

 

 

It does if the player brought in is better than the player going out.

[Flight]

Is that still true after you take into account wages, signing on fees and selling pay-offs as well?

 

Bearing in mind that this thread was started explicitly to factor all the other expenses into player costs as well as actual buying costs?

 

 

As you say the thread was started to point out that Wenger (and the Mancs and Chelsea) has paid more in extra wages than we have in purchases, before you consider Mr Fergusons ability to spunk £30mill on a player or £10mill to borrow Tevez.

 

 

It would be fair enough to do what you are suggesting, but then one thing we do know for sure - Wenger won't be getting single penny back from the extra wages.

[Flasher]

how did you come up with £66.4m?

 

 

By using a calculator. You can take Aurelio out though, obviously, but he was free.

 

Why?

[Flasher]

It does if the player brought in is better than the player going out.

 

 

Absolutely, when it works.

 

This year we lost Crouch & Voronin and replaced them with N'goals and Keane.

[Mikey]

As you say the thread was started to point out that Wenger (and the Mancs and Chelsea) has paid more in extra wages than we have in purchases, before you consider Mr Fergusons ability to spunk £30mill on a player or £10mill to borrow Tevez.

It would be fair enough to do what you are suggesting, but then one thing we do know for sure - Wenger won't be getting single penny back from the extra wages.

So this thread is meant to compare Rafa's record with transfers to the other top clubs in the PL primarily relating to the fact that their wage bill is higher than ours so we must have done better?

 

If you add everything up it doesn't bear thinking about how much we've lost on Pennant, and Keane alone.

 

Also you're taking this years figures and just multiplying them by the 5 years Rafa's been here how do you know thats true? I find it hard to believe that 5 years ago Arsenal were building their new ground, getting 35,000 for home games and still paying £80+M per year on wages.

 

Arsenal sell star players and make big money on them, Anelka, Overmars & Petit etc we don't. United sell squad players and get big money for them, Richardson, Rossi, the Spanish CB at Barca I can't remember, Heinze etc we don't.

 

FWIW I honestly believe that signing Torres alone would negate any bad dealings we may have made.

[Flight]

So this thread is meant to compare Rafa's record with transfers to the other top clubs in the PL primarily relating to the fact that their wage bill is higher than ours so we must have done better?

 

 

With respect mate, I haven't said anything of the sort. You are putting words into my mouth.

 

 

It was you, in another thread, that said Wenger had done as well as Rafa with the same financial restraints. I'm pointing out that not only is that not true, but that Rafa has also had to rebuild the whole of the squad. Wenger has maintained the same player costs while losing many key players.

 

 

 

Also you're taking this years figures and just multiplying them by the 5 years Rafa's been here how do you know thats true? I find it hard to believe that 5 years ago Arsenal were building their new ground, getting 35,000 for home games and still paying £80+M per year on wages.

 

 

Actually, you're wrong. The figures more than prove it - its there in black and white in Deloittes reports. Do you not remember them paying Henry alone more than £10mill one year ?

Edited March 12, 2009 by Flight

[richwilks]

80 million net spend over 5 years. Not bad at all considering the quality of players we have including Argentina's captain, 5 Euro 2008 Champions and the best striker in the world,