The next lesson Rafa needs to learn...

[alias75]

Hes changed the team much less than usual especially at the start of the season when its important to get off to a strong start, yes during the christmas period your going to change things more because your playing more games in a short space of time and you're going to have injuries and suspensions to deal with too, but in general hes kept a much more consistent line up.

 

I think the next thing he has to learn quickly is that too many draws in this league will kill you and sometimes its worth taking the risk of losing 1 point to win 3 points. I can understand being more cautious against certain teams but when we're playing teams like Stoke that aren't interested in attacking i really think its worth the risk putting more attacking players on there.

 

Twice now when we've been 0-0 and needed a goal hes left a £20 million striker on the bench, we've only lost 1 game this season but these 0-0's in games where we're dominating the game are really costing us. Ok fair enough if you're playing Man Utd or Chelsea and its a tight game but when the pattern of play is such that we're the only team looking to score (which has been the case a few times this season) what do we have to lose going 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 and putting the extra attacking players on there.

 

I guess its fine when your winning these types of games 1-0 but we seem to draw them 0-0 more than we nick a 1-0, I know Rafa is a cautious coach but his failure to put on somebody like Keane at 0-0 in a game we're dominating is a decision i just don't understand. If we're losing a game we will be much more adventerous in terms of getting attacking players on the pitch and throwing men forward but when we're drawing a game the same urgency just isn't there.

 

He has to change his philosophy or all these draws will be costly.

[Falconhoof]

who the f*** are you to be offering lessons to the manager ?

 

cheeky c***.

[Earl Hafler]

Poor team selection. poor subs, poor result.

 

 

Lucas and Masch are adequate passers of the ball but you can't rely on them to bring the forwards into the game and with Gerrard playing forward it means you need supply lines but, without Alonso, there weren't any. You then have a lone striker who's scored twice in about 2 months and who's best work has been from dropping deep. At times it was 4-6-0.

[Jim D]

who the f*** are you to be offering lessons to the manager ?

 

cheeky c***.

 

He has a point, as Carragher rightly said, draws kill you in this League, if you aren't positive enough you will never win it. Take the 5 0-0 draws we've seen this season in the League:

 

Aston Villa

Stoke

West Ham

Fulham

Stoke

 

that yielded only five points, however if we risked taking off a defender and went for it, we would win some and lose some but 2 wins and 3 defeats (worst case scenario) gives you a better return than 5 draws.

[rjlfc]

who the f*** are you to be offering lessons to the manager ?

 

cheeky c***.

 

Would you not have done anything differently then? Were you happy with the attacking intent we showed today? If not, then . If so, then are you saying that Rafa should have done something differently? I think we all know the answer is yes and more frustratingly is that it's not the first time to happen.

 

I think thats what the OP meant, and you know it - pompous *****.

[allawee]

Good point. Rafa is great in the CL specially away because we set up to contain the other team and they move in for the kill when the time is right or when the opportunity presents it self.

 

Against lower teams in the PL, we should approach the game differently, be positive, set up to attack, play the top strikers at the start and take the initiative.

 

I am not a football expert, but I have always heard the experts say, attack is the best defence. They way we were set up against Stoke today, was to first and foremost not to conceed ground in midfield rathen than swarm the penalty area with attacking players.

 

There were 3 moments in the first half when Dirk picked up the ball on the side of the penalty area of Carra or Reira and there was not even a single liverpool player in the penalty box!

[mathewbet1]

Should have started with this

 

Carra Hyppia Skrtle Aurelio

Riera Garrard Masch Bable

...............Keane..............

...............Torres..............

[allawee]

Should have started with this

 

Carra Hyppia Skrtle Aurelio

Riera Garrard Masch Bable

...............Keane..............

...............Torres..............

 

I think with the exception of Dirk for Babel as before the match, you could not drop Dirk after his recent performances

[Earl Hafler]

I think with the exception of Dirk for Babel as before the match, you could not drop Dirk after his recent performances

 

Why ?

[Saintslfc13]

Hes changed the team much less than usual especially at the start of the season when its important to get off to a strong start, yes during the christmas period your going to change things more because your playing more games in a short space of time and you're going to have injuries and suspensions to deal with too, but in general hes kept a much more consistent line up.

 

I think the next thing he has to learn quickly is that too many draws in this league will kill you and sometimes its worth taking the risk of losing 1 point to win 3 points. I can understand being more cautious against certain teams but when we're playing teams like Stoke that aren't interested in attacking i really think its worth the risk putting more attacking players on there.

 

Twice now when we've been 0-0 and needed a goal hes left a £20 million striker on the bench, we've only lost 1 game this season but these 0-0's in games where we're dominating the game are really costing us. Ok fair enough if you're playing Man Utd or Chelsea and its a tight game but when the pattern of play is such that we're the only team looking to score (which has been the case a few times this season) what do we have to lose going 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 and putting the extra attacking players on there.

 

I guess its fine when your winning these types of games 1-0 but we seem to draw them 0-0 more than we nick a 1-0, I know Rafa is a cautious coach but his failure to put on somebody like Keane at 0-0 in a game we're dominating is a decision i just don't understand. If we're losing a game we will be much more adventerous in terms of getting attacking players on the pitch and throwing men forward but when we're drawing a game the same urgency just isn't there.

 

He has to change his philosophy or all these draws will be costly.

 

I understand your frustration, really I do, but Stoke we're more than capable of stealing a late goal just as we were. Had we thrown on that extra striker and sacrificed a defender then lost the game people would be calling for Rafa's head. The only result that satisfies anyone is a win. We need wins but we also need to let the manager do his f*cking job every now and then, without acting like we as fans know it all. He saw a threat from Stoke and knows that a loss means a Chelsea win sees them go top, where as now, we're one point ahead at worst tomorrow. (Although to be honest I'd prefer a Chelsea win in that game so I'm hoping we're only one point ahead.) I can't remember you ever leading anyone to the title, so why bother criticising the man who brought us our 5th champions league cup, a had guided a team to victory in arguably the second hardest league in the world? I think he knows a bit more than you about the subject to be fair. Another thing that kills us more than draws ever will, is losses. We had chances and we didn't take them. Sorensen doesn't make that save from Kuyt and we win, Gerrard sprints a tenth of a second faster or Torres knocks the ball with a little less pace/more accuracy and we win. Keane didn't come on because Rafa didn't think he would change the game, and to be honest I don't see how you can assume he would have either. He's hardly been prolific in his time here and he isn't the physical presence that would have been ideal. This was a game for a Crouch/Heskey type of player at the end. I also think you would do well to forget Keane's price tag because it's apparent to everyone not harping on the subject that Rafa gives f*ck all what you cost. If Torres and Keane had swapped positions (Torres playing like Keane and Keane playing like Torres) then he would have been left there as well, regardless if he was our "Record Transfer"

[allawee]

Why ?

 

Don't blame me, blame Rafa...he never drops Kuyt, so I was only allowing for that fact!

[alias75]

I understand your frustration, really I do, but Stoke we're more than capable of stealing a late goal just as we were. Had we thrown on that extra striker and sacrificed a defender then lost the game people would be calling for Rafa's head...

 

I guess my argument would be we've drawn 5 games 0-0 now, by being a little more adventurous you only need to turn 2 of those into wins to get 1 more point, even if you lose the other 3 by being a little more offensive.

 

I have so much faith in the defensive ability of this team that i just don't think we'd lose many games by being more adventurous especially when the teams we're talking about are hardly interested in attacking us. Ok Stoke today were a little more ambitious but Stoke at home, West Ham at home Fulham at home, these were games where the opposition weren't interested in attacking us.

 

Of course it doesn't mean by throwing on more forwards it automatically means your going to get the breakthrough but if your getting into wide positions and theres 2 or 3 men in the box instead of 1 surely you have a better chance of getting a lucky break.

 

I can understand the tactical reason for not wanting to direct all the play through the middle as that becomes easy to defend against but if your tactic is to get the ball out wide and stretch the game what good is that if theres 1 person getting into the box to attack any cross?

[Cam]

At times it was 4-6-0.

I said the exact same thing last month. If the formation is to be 4-2-3-1 then the central pairing can not be Gerrard & Kuyt or it ends up as the formation you say.

 

To make the line of 3 work we need someone behind them who can feed them. Without Alonso (and Agger it has to be said) it was a game destined for Gerrard to drop back and deliver the ammunition. Lucas & Mascherano may play very well together but it's as a defensive unit only and the best form of defence is attack. Without moving the ball forward it's only putting more pressure on the defence.

[lawrie]

Aston Villa

Stoke

West Ham

Fulham

Stoke

 

that yielded only five points, however if we risked taking off a defender and went for it, we would win some and lose some but 2 wins and 3 defeats (worst case scenario) gives you a better return than 5 draws.

 

Talking 'fact' the worst case scenario would have been 5 less points than we have now and being third behind Aston Villa and Chelsea and just 3 points ahead of United with them having 3 games in hand. I know today is frustrating (and I wish we had gone for it with both Keane and Torres up front) but an away point is not such a bad result even if it was 'only' Stoke.

[Raj]

Poor team selection. poor subs, poor result.

Lucas and Masch are adequate passers of the ball but you can't rely on them to bring the forwards into the game and with Gerrard playing forward it means you need supply lines but, without Alonso, there weren't any. You then have a lone striker who's scored twice in about 2 months and who's best work has been from dropping deep. At times it was 4-6-0.

 

Poor performance (To add)

 

For once I am agreeing with you.

[Duncan Disorderly]

Take the 5 0-0 draws we've seen this season in the League

So long as it's nothing like the 13 draws we had last season, we might get away with it.

[Paddy 66]

He needs to leanr not to listen to some of the idiots on here.

[Duncan Disorderly]

He needs to leanr not to listen to some of the idiots on here.

Do you think his tactical nous is based on our ramblings?

 

What scares me is the the lead we could've had if we won the 5 drawn matches and kept our lead against Spurs.

[MFletcher]

Imagine the lead Chelsea would have had if they hadn't cocked up the number of home matches they have.

 

You make it sound like the inability to run away with the league is exclusive only to us.

[Gunga Din]

Do you think his tactical nous is based on our ramblings?

 

What scares me is the the lead we could've had if we won the 5 drawn matches and kept our lead against Spurs.

 

 

had we beaten Stoke twice and beaten Hull, all games we should be winning easily,we would be out of sight. im not arsed about other teams dropping points, they are games we should have won, and IMO would have won, had we played with a bit more belief and a bit less defensively

[MFletcher]

And if Chelsea had won the many games they should have 'won easily', or taken more than one point from three home games against the Big Four, they'd be miles ahead and our extra six points wouldn't matter.

 

We're dealing with the here and now. There is no point looking at matches and saying "we should have won that". We should have beaten Hull. We shouldn't have beaten Middlesbrough. We should have beaten Stoke. We shouldn't have beat Standard Liege. That's just the way it goes sometimes.

Edited January 11, 2009 by MFletcher

[Gunga Din]

And if Chelsea had won the many games they should have 'won easily', or taken more than one point from three home games against the Big Four, they'd be miles ahead and our extra six points wouldn't matter.

 

We're dealing with the here and now. There is no point looking at matches and saying "we should have won that". We should have beaten Hull. We shouldn't have beaten Middlesbrough. We should have beaten Stoke. We shouldn't have Standard Liege. That's just the way it goes sometimes.

 

like i said in my post, i'm not arsed what other teams did or didnt do. i'm talking about us. you can use other teams results to excuse our results all you like, and if you're happy finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th then you are right in what you say.

[MFletcher]

I'm equally as arsed about our team as you are, but at least I can appreciate that every single bleeding fan across the country looks back on fixtures and says 'we should have won that'. Such thoughts aren't exclusive to Liverpool fans.

 

And it really is not a case of 'excusing' results. This inquests that are carried out on this forum after a dodgy result are laughable at the best of times. You know we've won when you log on and find the match thread is about five pages long and we haven't had a number of different topics started in which the topic creator points out a blatant, 'obvious' fact that the two-time La Liga and European Cup winning manager obviously wouldn't have the expertise to realise himself.

 

The performance was disappointing. It does not merit the level of doom mongering abounding at the minute. And you should be arsed about what other teams do. You make it seem as if we should simply win the rest of our matches and win the league. Do you really think we're going to get to May and, if we do win the league, get there without a single hiccup along the way? Maybe we'll thump the Mancs at Old Trafford and get points there to make up for today?

 

In the meantime, I would advise everyone to calm down and appreciate that we are not facing a relegation battle, much as you'd think we were given the outrage sprouting forth at present.

[Cam]

And if Chelsea had won the many games they should have 'won easily'

But were their games a case of "should've won easily" or did they stutter to draws and defeats? Yes, before the games anyone would say they ought to have won them but did they perform like that on the pitch?

 

Okay, even West Brom could say "if we'd won all our games we'd be top now". But the three 0-0s at home and the Spurs game... we battered them all. Yes, today should have been a draw but the others ought to have been wins - not on paper but in historical facts on grass. Points tossed away.

[MFletcher]

But were their games a case of "should've won easily" or did they stutter to draws and defeats? Yes, before the games anyone would say they ought to have won them but did they perform like that on the pitch?

 

Okay, even West Brom could say "if we'd won all our games we'd be top now". But the three 0-0s at home and the Spurs game... we battered them all. Yes, today should have been a draw but the others ought to have been wins - not on paper but in historical facts on grass. Points tossed away.

 

Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Portsmouth.

 

Points we probably shouldn't have got.

 

It works both ways.