The day in the leccy cupboard when I knew I'd never see the edge of my seat...

[Papasmurf]

You know the way you're supposed to remember exactly where you are when certain events happen?

 

Well you sometimes remember exactly where you are when you realise something point blank, and it sticks.

 

Say you had a mate who you were never quite sure about, and you saw him eying up a tenner on your kitchen table in a dead shifty way, your mind would be made up. He wouldn't have to steal it for you to know that's what he was thinking.

 

Some things die, instantly, just like that. When the gut feeling you had suddenly has foundation, it takes a fool to ignore it. You may hope to be proven wrong, but it seldom happens.

 

I've seen loads of comparisons being made between Gerrard Houllier and Rafael Benitez lately. I wonder to myself how, and why?

 

How is it that people can see one thing, and relate it to something completely different, simply because certain situations are the same?

 

When you've had one cheeky f***** rob a few squid out of your jacket pocket, you're a few quid down.

 

When you're with a good mate who you should know would never rob you, and you find your jacket a few quids short, you may automatically think the only conclusion is that your mate's a cheeky f***** too.

 

Go and accuse him if you want.

 

Then maybe realise you just bought a chippy on the way home, lent your ma a tenner, or bought the new boyzone cd.

 

Then it's you that's f***ed up. It's not your mate in the picture no more, it's you for being a paranoid t***, and a s*** mate.

 

Oops.

 

The good fellas will forgive you, but not forget it. No matter how sorry you say you are, there's always going to be that bitter taste in the mouth that you thought like that in the first place about someone who should have earned your respect, if for little other than being nothing like the other little scumbags who'd do that.

 

Things are cool. Just not as cool as they were, and you both know it.

 

This feeling is true amongst certain sections of Liverpool fans.

People don't quite understand the long term effects of their actions it seems.

 

Those who find every angle to throw accusations towards Benitez now, will, no doubt, highlight the dour displays of football as justifiable reason for their previous rantings. They will probably have little shame if they find themselves jumping round celebrating a cup or league title win.

 

Mr.Benitez is not exempt from criticism. Nor should he be.

Some of his decisions can rightly be questioned. It's our right as fans to do that, if we blindly followed there wouldn't be much debate.

But some accusations go well over and beyond the usual sceptical analysis of those who question him, but remain aware that he has constructed a very good team that can play good football and gained us the status as maybe the worst draw for any of Europe's elite teams.

 

Some digs are way below the belt.

 

I was working in bootle a few years ago. It was around the time we were looking to sign Harry Kewell. Liverpool fans were going mad with excitement. He was about to announce his decision on Australian TV later that night if I remember correctly. Everyone waited with baited breath.

He chose us, everyone went mad, and the rest....you know.

 

He was one of the "Edge of the seat" signings we were promised.

 

Remember them?

 

Gerard Houllier and his sidekick had made a promise to uplift the fans who'd watched their team defend their way to any suiccess it'd had during his tenure. His promise of star quality was surely born out of the fact that we'd failed miserably to deliver any suatained attacking quality over the course of a season.

 

Initially I thought he was on the money. He knew what we needed at least. His statement of intent proved this. Hope was still alive man, still breathing.

 

No sooner had it been revived, than it carped it in the leccy cupboard.

 

There's me, City FM blurring away in the kitchen, leaning into the cubbyhole to stick a fiver in the meter, struggling to see if it's gone in.

Sport bit is on after the news and I hear it.........."Gerard Houllier has said there will be no more spending following the capture of Former Leeds star Harry Kewell."......

 

I'll never forget that moment in time, because it's when I knew for a fact that our coming season would be a failure and would spell the end of Houllier's Liverpool career.

 

I hoped to god he was playing games. That this was a trick, a transfer policy to get an edge in the race for some signing he really did have lined up.

 

The season drew closer and it became clear that wasn't the case.

He really did think Harry Kewell would be the "missing link" we needed to turn a bunch of abject failure into title challengers.

 

Every bit of respect I had left for him evaporated at that point. He knew sweet fa about our problems if he thought one man could change a whole team. His ideas and principles would need a major revamp, as would the team itself. The fact he thought Kewell would provide us with every single thing we lacked, simply beggared belief. Besides, what if Kewell was injured? Would that mean we no longer had that missing link, and would be staved of creativity?If I can pose these obvious questions, why can't a proffesional football manager?

 

The flat, streile, unimaginative, narrow, defensive, one dimensional brand of football we had been playing until that point could never be rectified by the signing of one man. It proved beyond question that Houllier's ideas, his philosophy, was just plain wrong. Just bad. He'd never make it, and neither would we while he was in charge.

 

The squad was a shambles, and by the end of that season, true enough, the fans were phoning Radio city by the jundreds stating their refusal to go to another game while he was in charge, results and performances had fallen to the point where inconsistent would represent an improvement. We were terribly bad. Awful even.

 

His tenure was brought to a respectful end and a new era dawned when the Echo reported the Valencia manager to be our new supremo.

 

I didn't know his name, but when the list of potential managers was drawn up

the Valencia coach was my choice. I wondered whether anyone out there woudl have even thought of this. It was, obviously, based on the two games we played against them in which we were completely and utterly outclassed by a team who's defensive solidity and controlled attacking was something light years beyond anything we'd seen in years. Humiliation wasn't close.

It'd be the perfect choice. A top manager who wasn't yet at one of the Elite clubs in Europe.

 

When the Echo broke the news that he was going to be the new boss, I was over the fecking moon.

 

Five years later, I still am.

 

His dispute with the Valencia board and the famous sofa and lamp statement was well documented as the main reason for his departure, yet he has endured similar things here, and stuck by us, despite interest from clubs like Madrid and Inter Milan. He has constructed a team that defends well, but has quality in all the attacking areas. He's had little financial backing compared to the people he's expected to challenge, and yet he has constructed a squad which can cope with the demands of all competitions and beat the very best Europe has to offer.

 

Our football may suffer as a result of the constant changing, but I firmly believe that this is a result of constant tweaking and changing needed because of the inability to make large scale changes all at once.

 

Our transfer policy has been one of steady transition. Yet this is something people overlook in their eagerness to see superstar names brought in every year. We had to fill gaping holes with players who could at least provide a temporary measure. Year after year the standard of the signings has improved, to the point where now Benitez may venture into the transfer market aiming for a very high level of player once or twice per season.

 

Our football has been balanced, good quality stuff, played at a high tempo with good organisation. That we haven't entered into every season playing as such does not detract from the fact that, when we get it together, usually mid season, we are playing very good quality football, outplaying the majority of teams we face, and getting results. A lack of quality in vital areas has let the team down on such occasions, but even that has been rectified to a large degree, and the process is ongoing.

 

The man utd match is an example. Once again we battered them. Once again we deserved the three points. But this time we actually got it.

Does that mean our mentality was better this time round?

Maybe our tactics were better?

Does it mean we adopted an over cautious approach to the games before this?

 

Or does it mean some people only see the result, and draw every conclusion from there?

 

Like Rafa said before the game, some people only seee results, not performances.

 

How true he was. But maybe he could have gone further.

 

Some people only see the here and now. The stale drab showing against boro was reminicent of the Houllier days...

 

Maybe it was, but maybe there's also more to it than the fact our manager and his predecessor are the same. Maybe many many more factors are at work here, rather than the one that is our manager's ideas are crap, and his philosophy is so badly flawed that any idiot can see it will never work.

 

Any comparison between the two men is disrespectful. Any fan comparing this team, this manager, this atmosphere, this potential, with that of it's 2004 counterpart, maybe shares more in the way of warped one dimensional flawed ideas with Houllier than anyone.

 

Gerard Houllier seemed a nice man, but he is not Benitez. Not even similar.

 

To those able to see this, it is with a degree of resentment they view the thought of the thought of the current crop of fickle accusers and hasty critics jumping round celebrating the triumph of a Rafael Benitez team.

Knowing full well that when they do it, they should be ashamed of themselves.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Papasmurf

[shaq]

Well written, and valid to a degree. I would take issue with the fact that Gerard is written about so negatively - OK, so he's not as good as Rafa, but he did set some foundation for Rafa. Gerard also brought us moments of glory, and I for one will respect him for that, and love him for the fact that he loved, and still loves us.

 

Under Houllier there were periods were we were awesome, but would then lose our way, retreat into a defensive shell, whatever. We've also seen plenty of that under Rafa.

 

Personally, I think we will win the league under Rafa - this season I think. The reason I think this is that Rafa is the best manager in the Premiership, and his abilities will make up for the difference in financial clout between us and Chelsea and Man U.

 

Unfortunately, as good as Gerard was, he wasn't as good as Wenger and Ferguson.

[Jarg Armani]

an entertaining read, love the thread title too.

[Hassony]

Good post

 

One thing that I like about Rafa is that he is not content to be second best, GH seemed happy enough with qualifying to the champion league, but Rafa will always push the board to invest more, he must be a nightmare for any chairman

[Bogman]

Good post

 

One thing that I like about Rafa is that he is not content to be second best, GH seemed happy enough with qualifying to the champion league, but Rafa will always push the board to invest more, he must be a nightmare for any chairman

 

 

:shake:

 

oh, and a top post.

 

I've been reading alot of posters compairing Rafa with Houllier. I've obviously been watching another Liverpool for the last four years or so, because for the life of me, Rafa's Liverpool is nothing like Gerard's, and I don't see us reaching our plateau yet, either.

[Cobs]

15 words or less?

[abc]

I'm not GH's biggest fan, nor one of his "footballing" philosophy. But to accuse him of thinking Kewell was the missing link is harsh. I think that summer's low-spending had something to do with the fact that we weren't in the CL, and that the previous season 20m was spent on 3 players who were ultimately failures at the club.

Edited September 18, 2008 by abc

[Hassony]

I'm not GH's biggest fan, nor one of his "footballing" philosophy. But to accuse him of thinking Kewell was the missing link is harsh. I think that summer's low-spending had something to do with the fact that we weren't in the CL, and that the previous season 20m was spent on 3 players who were ultimately failures at the club.

 

 

Paying for cisse, Le tallac, Sinama and leaving them to learn their trade in france was also down to him wasn't

 

Wanted to buy essien and loan him back to Bastia as well didn't he?

[matty]

15 words or less?

Pay by direct debit or you'll end up with a meter. Oh yeah, Rafa's ace.

[Hassony]

Pay by direct debit or you'll end up with a meter. Oh yeah, Rafa's ace.

 

thats 16 words

[Red Lecter]

Good post, Na PapaSmurf. Have to agree with you on pretty much everything you've said.

 

One post disagrees about Houllier being compared so unfavourably. I'd ask one thing in response; why has Rafa had to rip up everything and start from scratch? The academy and scouting network, as well as the entire squad pretty much? How come it's taken 4 years to get to this point, if GH had indeed build solid foundations? Apart from the improvements at Melwood and the academy, what has been kept?

 

PS, did Figgy take the post as a personal insult on the corner?

[matty]

thats 16 words

 

modern education. Contractions are one word, sonny.

[The_MC]

I dont see the comparisons to Houllier either. We havent yet reached the unstoppable machine that Valenica got to under Benitez, but we're undoubtably going in the right direction.

 

The difference in the styles of the two teams is massive, even if they are both based around counter-attacking play. Under Gerard it was more of a direct counter attack, but now we take our time, attack patiently, and wait for our opportunity, then organise, consolidate and pressure the opponents into giving us the ball back.

 

The differences in our defensive play are huge imo. Under Houllier we'd get ahead and start defending, and there was a sense of inevitability that we would concede, and it often happened. With Rafa in charge im confident we can shut a team out when we go into defensive mode. The teams ability to press and pressurise the opposition into mistakes makes us a very hard team to break down, not to mention the organisation of the team to nullify teams.

 

I'll always respect Houllier becuase he gave us some great times, but we're in the right hands with Benitez. It says it all when the Champions League draws are being made and you know that every team is hoping to avoid us. Even though Rafa does make mistakes, I honestly dont think theres another manager in the world i would rather have at the club.

[Hassony]

modern education. Contractions are one word, sonny.

 

whatever

[Bogman]

I dont see the comparisons to Houllier either. We havent yet reached the unstoppable machine that Valenica got to under Benitez, but we're undoubtably going in the right direction.

 

The difference in the styles of the two teams is massive, even if they are both based around counter-attacking play. Under Gerard it was more of a direct counter attack, but now we take our time, attack patiently, and wait for our opportunity, then organise, consolidate and pressure the opponents into giving us the ball back.

 

The differences in our defensive play are huge imo. Under Houllier we'd get ahead and start defending, and there was a sense of inevitability that we would concede, and it often happened. With Rafa in charge im confident we can shut a team out when we go into defensive mode. The teams ability to press and pressurise the opposition into mistakes makes us a very hard team to break down, not to mention the organisation of the team to nullify teams.

 

I'll always respect Houllier becuase he gave us some great times, but we're in the right hands with Benitez. It says it all when the Champions League draws are being made and you know that every team is hoping to avoid us. Even though Rafa does make mistakes, I honestly dont think theres another manager in the world i would rather have at the club.

 

 

good call.

 

Rafa c***s up, who doesn't, but IMO, rafa's up there with the best we've had since our golden era.

 

I dread to think where we'd be without the great man

Edited September 18, 2008 by Bogman

[shaq]

Good post, Na PapaSmurf. Have to agree with you on pretty much everything you've said.

 

One post disagrees about Houllier being compared so unfavourably. I'd ask one thing in response; why has Rafa had to rip up everything and start from scratch? The academy and scouting network, as well as the entire squad pretty much? How come it's taken 4 years to get to this point, if GH had indeed build solid foundations? Apart from the improvements at Melwood and the academy, what has been kept?

 

PS, did Figgy take the post as a personal insult on the corner?

 

I'm guessing your talking about my post...

 

Just to clarify - I agree Benitez is a massive step up from Houllier. As I said, I'm confident that we will win the league with Rafa, but my point was that it wasn't necessary to get so down on Houllier either. Houllier took us forward from the days of Roy Evans and Graeme Souness and along the way we had some fond memories. The squad that Houllier put together couldn't have been that bad, because they won the UEFA cup, and under Rafa, were champions of Europe. (I think it was only Garcia and Alonso that were added).

 

I think the changes over the last four years are only slightly more than natural progression as well - players like Hyypia, Hamann getting older, some of the deadwood being replaced. I think the same happens at all the other clubs. Looking at our match in 2005 against Arsenal for example, on that day, we had Hyypia, Carra, Gerrard and Alonso all playing, who to a greater or lesser degree are still first teamers now. In comparison, Arsenal had Lehmann, Toure, Senderos, Fabregas and Van Persie playing. All other players on both teams have since moved on. Although that was an example, I imagine if you performed a similar exercise for any other team, then that too would yield about 50% of team having changed in a four/five year period.

[Red Lecter]

I'm guessing your talking about my post...

 

Just to clarify - I agree Benitez is a massive step up from Houllier. As I said, I'm confident that we will win the league with Rafa, but my point was that it wasn't necessary to get so down on Houllier ......

 

Nah, I disagree it was just mostly natural progression.

 

On the 2004-05 CL run, it was a hell of a shock to the entire world and his dog that we even got to the final, never mind win it. What does that say about the quality of the squad? Of course as fans we "believed". But the rest of the world, didn't.

 

Of course, considering the time it's taken to get this far, it could be considered to be mainly natural changes, but IMO, that in itself is simpy a reflection of a a lack of money.

 

There's been a massive improvement in quality. We had to give GH's players away for free and yet with Rafa's, we actually get some money back. I'll always be grateful for the trophies won under GH, but it says something that Rafa had to tell Gerrard that we didn't have a strong enough squad to compete for the F.A. Cup after we got knockeed out by Burnley. I also seem to recall comments from Gerrard about Diao.

 

Also under GH, we were at times, a "backs to the wall" team. How often does that happen now? As Rafa keeps telling us, he wants the players to control the games.

 

That post on RAWK which was based on the books by Rinus Michels made me look at things a little more closely.

 

Is there really as much of a difference in the squad at Man Utd and Chelsea after Mourinho took the reins there? Arsenal are a one off. Look at us in that time frame and compare our squads? 37 points behind and this year, we're potential challengers.

 

That to me, is so much more than "only slightly more than natural progression".

Edited September 18, 2008 by Sanj77

[Molby]

Rafa is very similar to GH pre aorta

 

and PapaSmurph, although eloquent, is obviously insane, but not necessarily in a way that will stop him functioning in society

[hagi_complex]

I agree with some parts and disagree with others, but regardless of that, and despite being half-cut, I read it all and enjoyed the post. Niiish waaan.

[Duncan Disorderly]

modern education. Contractions are one word, sonny.

No they're not.

[matty]

No they're not.

 

Another thicko.

[Bailo]

Rafa is very similar to GH pre aorta

Completely disagree with that.

[Papasmurf]

I would take issue with the fact that Gerard is written about so negatively - OK, so he's not as good as Rafa, but he did set some foundation for Rafa. Gerard also brought us moments of glory, and I for one will respect him for that, and love him for the fact that he loved, and still loves us.

 

I don't hold any grudges against Houllier. He seems like a nice enough fella. I talk about him in footballing terms, not trying to demonise the bloke.

 

He did set in place some good things, however, I think some of what he did is remembered so fondly because it came as the only glimpse of professionalism we'd had in a long period of abject underachievement.

 

Souness ripped us apart, simple as. He wasted countless millions on s****, and, to be honest, it'd be a mission trying to explain the countless bad things that went on during his time her. He was just an absolute disaster, and arrogant and horrible with it. Lost all respect for that man. Couldn't care less that he played for us, he's a top grade a$$hole. Evans tried his best to stabilise the ship but didn't have anywhere near the tactical nouse or the authority to get the best out of the players he had, didn't have the required knowledge to set in place the things we needed long term, and was basically more of a coaching staff than a manager. I think maybe he'd admit that himself.

 

Houllier, in hindsight, was merely a competent European manager. That, compared to what had gone before, meant that Liverpool fans were introduced to things we hadn't seen.

 

I remember the stories about his time with France as manager. The fact that he'd failed to gain qualification for the next major tournament, then went upstairs to become director of football and overseen the development of the next crop of french superstars who would eventually go on to dominate the world, got us all excited about what he could do for us.

 

He structured things differently to anyone who'd gone before him. He brought us into the modern era if you like. unfortunately for both parties, although the new way of thinking was in line with the rest of Europe, in practice it wasn't on a par with those European counterparts who had perfected it, or at least got to a high level, of which there are quite a few. This meant we were only ever going to reach a certain standard, that much became clear long before Gerard left.

 

This is where most of his problems stemmed from.

His blatant refusal to listen to any of the criticism directed at him, or acnowledge his own fans, brushing them off almost arrogantly as if they knew nothing, alienated him from a large section of the fanbase. This was probably the saddest part of the relationship we'd had with a man who, until that point, was well liked and respected for what he'd at least tried to achieve.

 

If Houllier had told us openly "look, I love this club, and I feel I've taken us as far as we can go"..... He would, regardless of the fact he didn't hit the heights of the great managers of our time, have been remebered with similar fondness as the likes of Paisley, Shankly, Fagan and Dalglish: A man who achieved success, restored our pride, and passed on the baton to someone who could take us further. Someone humble, who'd picked us up out of the dirt, brushed us down, and showed his love of the club by sacraficing his own desire for success for the benefit of something more important.

 

Sadly, he got sucked under. Drawn into the pursuit of vindication. His desire to be proven right, to poke one in the eye of his detractors, and to chase his own selfish aims regardless of the very respectful request of those who still held him in high regard, to move on, ultimately took him over, and stained the character of a man who should never have been remembered with any ill feeling.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Papasmurf

[Molby]

Completely disagree with that.

 

 

you're right

 

in hindsight there was no need for the superlative

 

he's just 'similar' to Ged

 

hope this.....illuminates

[Duncan Disorderly]

Another thicko.

It was a joke.