Tactically What I'd Expect/Hope To See This Season

[Knox_Harrington]

We need to think beyond full backs getting beyond. It’s the easy thing to conclude but we need to do so much more. I'm not kidding when I say the big thing this season is Agger/Skirtl and the ability both have to bomb on with or without the ball. First game of the season will see a marker set down with either foraying forward regularly if Sunderland line up with one striker. No one will know how to deal with it. The centre forward lets him go, the attacking midfielder has a job to do on Mascherano, the next midfielder doesn't want to leave Barry/Gerrard (presuming we use this 433 and sign Gaz Baz) and suddenly whether the centre half has the ball or not, we're outnumbering them in the final third. I’d be very disappointed if this didn’t happen regularly at home at the very least and by regularly I don’t mean twice a game but six times, seven times. It also can’t just be Agger as teams will get a plan together. Let’s see all of our centre halves be liberated to at least be a nuisance.

 

http://www.ynwa.tv/forum/index.php?showtopic=138109

 

On this front the above thread – which inevitably in these days of nonsense found itself ignored – Sacchi, the coach Benitez is believed to be closest, discusses universality of positions and tactical flexibility. Pushing beyond the centre half issue this is what the 433 model as mooted can offer us. Gaz Baz and Gerrard are inherently playing two positions (centre and wide) simultaneously and perhaps even five if one allows the idea of them being able to interchange with their fullbacks, with Mascherano and with the forwards wide of Torres. This suggests further why Alonso finds himself being the unfortunate man; short of the flexibility of both of these and the recovery pace of Mascherano should he push himself out of position.

 

Combine this flexibility in midfield with a forward line that can drop back without the ball under times of great pressure and close down when we need to get out and can in and of itself operate to the same principles as Gerrard and Barry with the ball. Imagine Keane wide of Torres on one side and Babel on the other. When Babel has it wide left, Keane is behind/alongside Torres in a traditional front two. When it’s wide right, vice versa. Torres runs a channel both can get inside the box; say he runs a channel to the right, Gerrard and the full back can support, two attacking players get in and Barry goes where he goes.

 

The difference between this and the 4-6-0 notion implied in the link is Torres. He is an out and out front man and we shouldn’t try to get around this and indeed I’d argue we won’t. However, is this a bad thing? Logically, this makes sense – as we have a goalkeeper we should have a point man at the other end, the focal around which this works.

 

The frustrating thing about losing Alonso is that he’s arguably the player we have with the best brain to be able to direct these operations. The next frustrating thing is that we are clearly going to need a squad which will be intelligent and athletic enough to play the game like this week in, week out. Of those names not mentioned so far, Lucas could be smart enough but is he fit enough? Kuyt appears to have both (could still do with a yard of pace), Benayoun likewise. Aurelio has intelligence about him and, as said elsewhere by George Lees could cover Barry as well as left back. There’s also a question mark over Babel but a question mark which must, arguably, be borne for now. We still need a few more players who will be able to cope with football played at this level.

 

This is the way I see us going, a goalkeeper, nine players who can interchange - some more interchangeable than others and Torres up top. It’s a brave move but we haven’t got United’s squad or Chelsea’s spending power – we’ve got to innovate our way into winning what we need to win.

[honourablegeorge]

If you'd be so kind as to remove "Gaz Baz" from it, I'd agree 100%.

[yellow jumper]

The difference between this and the 4-6-0 notion implied in the link is Torres. He is an out and out front man and we shouldn’t try to get around this and indeed I’d argue we won’t. However, is this a bad thing? Logically, this makes sense – as we have a goalkeeper we should have a point man at the other end, the focal around which this works.

 

and despite what sacchi says he had van basten, a previous incarnation of torres in terms of being the lethal point of his fluid system.

Edited July 11, 2008 by george lees

[Woodsyla]

I can't remember who said it (may have been Strachan) but someone said a 4-3-3 and a 4-5-1 are same formation. The difference is in how attacking the wide players are.

 

Agree entirely in your summation and it illustrates how important Barry is in the formation. We need someone as flexible as Gerrard on the left as he is going to have to do 3 jobs at various times (LW, LM, CM)

[RedHarvest]

Good post. I agree that this is the kind of tactical fluidity that Rafa's been striving for. Also, Alonsos "sacrifice" for Barry is purely down to the latters positional adaptability (as well as Alonsos worth if we're really so broke). I still think we're missing some real creativity though - an Aimar or Litmanen type lockpicker.

[Knoxy]

Don't think we'll be that aggressive and don't think any of our CB's beyond Agger are suited for the role.

 

We'll probably just give the ball to Gerrard as often as possible

[trowie]

I can't remember who said it (may have been Strachan) but someone said a 4-3-3 and a 4-5-1 are same formation. The difference is in how attacking the wide players are.

 

Agree entirely in your summation and it illustrates how important Barry is in the formation. We need someone as flexible as Gerrard on the left as he is going to have to do 3 jobs at various times (LW, LM, CM)

And in the same breath 5311 can switch to 442(1-1) or 352 just as easily.

This is the first season I am really looking forward to a fluid interchange of system responsive to the game situation that will change from a solid defense to potent attacking force in the movement of two to three players in a flash

[Roscoe]

good analysis. I think you are spot on about alonso, such a fluid formation would seriously benefit from having a pivot, a reference point and alonso (like pirlo or riquelme) could flourish in this role. still, needs must and Gaz Baz (the only moniker I will be using) will offer great balance and perhaps more energy, drive and goals.

 

On the issue of Agger and Skrtel getting forward we have seen how the forward runs of carvalho, toure and to a lesser extent ferdinand give their respective teams another dimension and cause utter confusion in the opposition. Having a team of individuals smart enough and mobile enough to copmpensate for any of the outfield players becoming 'attackers' is, I think, Rafa's big idea and we really should (and need to) be close to making it work after this summer.

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

in an ideal world, in a nominal, flexible 4-2-3-1, you want:

 

full-backs who can cover the attacking wide players and the 2 'holding' midfielders

centre-halfs who can cover their full-backs, or push on through the middle

2 'holding' midfielders who can cover fullbacks, centre-halfs, and attacking wide players

attacking wide players who can cover full-backs, holding midfielders, the 'number 7' and the striker

a 'number 7' who can cover the attacking wide players and the striker

and a striker who can cover the wide men and the '7'

 

we're not at all far off having that, when (rather than if) we get Barry

 

I'm not sure you need one dedicated 'pivot' up front, but I do think that we should, as Torres is one of our key strengths, and obviously we should build on that

[abc]

Great post.

 

I think there is one very important point which will glue all this together - that Rafa emphasises the need to have much better movement off the ball, better support for the ball carrier. At many points during last season (examples: 6 matches without a win, first half of Chelsea CL away when we needed to get a goal back) the movement off the ball was non-existent, there were one or no options for the man on the ball, and players were spacing themselves a good 10 to 15 yards from the ball carrier. This meant players losing the ball often, which subsequently saps the players' individual and the team's collective confidence.

 

There needs to be a big change in the mentality of the team, and this has to come directly from the manager. Loosen the tactical restrictions (but not abandon!), let the players go out and enjoy themselves, and ultimately the results will come because we have quality players as it is. He generally errs on the side of caution and maybe next season we might see some slight overcompensating for it, which will be welcome. The comments about not being able to influence too many factors in a league match tactically lead me to believe that he might be releasing the shackles. Here's hoping...

Edited July 11, 2008 by abc

[Flight]

With Barry alongside Masch, we will see the solidarity that we have come to expect in defence in the midfield. I'm certain we will see one of the CBs bombing forward more, probably Agger, and more attacking play from the FBs. Keane would fit into this perfectly.

[Jarg Armani]

I'm not sure where the evidence is that Benitez is thinking about implementing this. I can certainly see him trying it, but whether he'll be able to conquer his own (and his team's) cautious nature is a big doubt for me. More likely he'll try it for 45 minutes and then bottle it, then go on to win the game through a gerrard screamer.

 

Speaking of Gerrard, i'm becoming convinced he is the best right back we'll never have. He'll never play there regularly because the media (and probably the player himself) would explode with righteous indignation about Rafa's mistreatment of England's great talent, but in my opinion the fullbacks are fast becoming some of the most important players in the league, and his talents are ideal to become the best of this new type of player.

 

For evidence of how important this position has become look at the fees for Bosingwa and Alves. They, especially Alves are good examples of this sort of player; fast, aggressive, not shy to shoot, able to demonstrate bursts of flair in tackles and long balls alike. Sound like anyone?

 

I really don't think this is square peg in round hole time, crowbarring him in simply because we could really do with an Evra, a Cole, a horrible Eboue, I think if Gerrard was emerging now he wouldn't be so quick to discount this idea, put it that way. Alvesish players overlapping Kuytish players, this is the future i see.

 

I realise this is a step backwards from what knox said, ie 'beyond fullbacks bombing on', but there you go.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jarg Armani

[Hassony]

I'm not sure where the evidence is that Benitez is thinking about implementing this. I can certainly see him trying it, but whether he'll be able to conquer his own (and his team's) cautious nature is a big doubt for me. More likely he'll try it for 45 minutes and then bottle it, then go on to win the game through a gerrard screamer.

 

Speaking of Gerrard, i'm becoming convinced he is the best right back we'll never have. He'll never play there regularly because the media (and probably the player himself) would explode with righteous indignation about Rafa's mistreatment of England's great talent, but in my opinion the fullbacks are fast becoming some of the most important players in the league, and his talents are ideal to become the best of this new type of player.

 

For evidence of how important this position has become look at the fees for Bosingwa and Alves. They, especially Alves are good examples of this sort of player; fast, aggressive, not shy to shoot, able to demonstrate bursts of flair in tackles and long balls alike. Sound like anyone?

 

I really don't think this is square peg in round hole time, crowbarring him in simply because we could really do with an Evra, a Cole, a horrible Eboue, I think if Gerrard was emerging now he wouldn't be so quick to discount this idea, put it that way. Alvesish players overlapping Kuytish players, this is the future i see.

 

Wasn't Cafu doing this 15 years ago anyway?

 

Gerrard might be the best right back in the world but it would still be crazy to play him there, much like Chelsea do with Essien (and Gerrard is 10 times the midfielder Essien is)

[Jarg Armani]

I don't think Chelsea are crazy to play Essien there. He runs games from right back and is a fantastic player, certainly not 10 times less a player than Gerrard.

 

And yes, Cafu was doing it 15 years ago but that's different. You could say Steve Nicol was too, but it's about more than just bombing on.

[Mikael Akerfeldt]

"Gaz Baz"

[Hassony]

I don't think Chelsea are crazy to play Essien there. He runs games from right back and is a fantastic player, certainly not 10 times less a player than Gerrard.

 

And yes, Cafu was doing it 15 years ago but that's different. You could say Steve Nicol was too, but it's about more than just bombing on.

How is different with Cafu?

 

Chelsea were right to play Essien there because the alternative is ferrera, who is without doubt the worst full back in the premiership. however they were stupid not buy a decent right back last summer and let Essien run their midfield

[SkippyjonJones]

Totally agree about the agger/skrtel point at the very beginning. 5 times last season (I think) at home we took the lead but ended up with a draw.. All of those games were between August and January –IE after Agger was injured and before Skrtel arrived. There’s a huge difference in having a solid CB partnership that can clear the ball and one that can control the ball and bring it forward and add to an attack. It takes away the possession from the opponent but instead of turning a clearance into a 50/50 it turns into positive possession. My only concern about Agger and skrtel as CB is how they work together and if one of then can act as a leader in defense. It’s a natural attribute for JC and Sami but one or both of Agger and Skrtel will have to develop that in order to become a truly effective partnership.

[Jarg Armani]

I think what i'm trying to say is that what Essien does there goes beyond bombing on, and isn't anything like Cafu.

 

The way that Chelsea team worked he was able to cover for the entire right side AND certain things the holding midfielders generally do, ie arriving late and playing balls back into the box/having a shot. This goes back to the original post too, it's not at all outside the realms of possibility to expect players to do a lot of running, Essien and Gerrard are both super fit, they can cover a lot of different roles in the same match if they work in bursts, which is Gerrards strength (or weakness when played at centre mid).

[Ripley]

We need to think beyond full backs getting beyond. It’s the easy thing to conclude but we need to do so much more. I'm not kidding when I say the big thing this season is Agger/Skirtl and the ability both have to bomb on with or without the ball. First game of the season will see a marker set down with either foraying forward regularly if Sunderland line up with one striker. No one will know how to deal with it. The centre forward lets him go, the attacking midfielder has a job to do on Mascherano, the next midfielder doesn't want to leave Barry/Gerrard (presuming we use this 433 and sign Gaz Baz) and suddenly whether the centre half has the ball or not, we're outnumbering them in the final third. I’d be very disappointed if this didn’t happen regularly at home at the very least and by regularly I don’t mean twice a game but six times, seven times. It also can’t just be Agger as teams will get a plan together. Let’s see all of our centre halves be liberated to at least be a nuisance.

The last word is almost the key to this. To be more than a nuisance though, they have to have some good, well-rehearsed movement around them when they get into or close to the final third - even getting played in on goal themselves, as I'm sure Touré, Carvalho and Alex have been (and scored) by seeing the space beyond the defence.

 

The downside of this was illustrated well in a Villa match 2 seasons ago. Every time Hyypia got the ball, they closed his square passes either side and just fell back marking closely, allowing him to run unchallenged, sometimes deep into their half. Result, Sami gets a nosebleed, plays an ambitious pass and they aimed at getting it quickly to the man who had got into the space behind Hyypia as soon as they got the ball.

 

It's the difference personnel (and a game head) makes though. No disparaging Hyypia, but Agger and Skrtel and just more suited to this with Mascherano looking after them.

[Rimbeux]

I like this, more of this kind of ting.

 

Quite agree that we've been looking for the two, three, four or five roles for many of the players on the pitch, but have suffered from not having players capable. Often this is mistaken as strikers playing too deep, or wingers tracking back to much, or over caution. What it's about is players having the engine, pace and workrate to run into great positons and recover to get back goalside as well as cover others when they go on.

 

I know it's not a popular shout, but Lampard is a great example of this kind of player, and his goal in the CL final a typical bit of end product. His thing is simple to think of, but very hard to pull off. It's essentially being able to play conventional midfield for most of a move, most of the game, but then find the right time to bomb on off the ball at high pace in the hope that you'll be in a strikers position when the move develops, and then being able to get back goal side in a hurry when it doesn't. He's not playing in the hole, he's not given the luxury of minimal defensive responsibility, he does what he does from central midfield, being involved in a lot of the build up play, doing his fair share of water carrying.

[David Hodgson]

In conclusion : good attacking teams, especially the successful ones in England, seem to be adept at getting their defenders well into the opposition half.

 

I hate to keep harping on about it, but Man Yoo and Arsenal are clearly fine attacking teams (in the style and tradition of the great Liverpool teams) adept at getting players forward, and crucially, in the box, in numbers, when it counts. They are effective, not just because they have good players, but because they attack with gay 'effin' abandon. That means getting your defenders forward.

 

Rafa has myriad qualities, but I am far from convinced that he gets how the 'English' attack. I am convinced he is anchored to the Italian tradition that pays, IMO, disproportionate respect to the defensive aspects of the game.

 

We can harp on all we like about formations, but until the manager gets what it takes to truly take on the morass of mediocrity in the premiership, I don't think we'll progress.

[yellow jumper]

as mentioned in the link Knox provided 'the italian tradition' he's anchored to is the one of the ac milan of the late 1980s. hardly catenaccio.

 

and what of chelsea, who won two titles playing an attritional, continental-style?

 

i think the emphasis at both arsenal and united is probably slightly more attacking, but neither of them have won anything without solid defences.

[Maldini]

We need to think beyond full backs getting beyond. It’s the easy thing to conclude but we need to do so much more. I'm not kidding when I say the big thing this season is Agger/Skirtl and the ability both have to bomb on with or without the ball. First game of the season will see a marker set down with either foraying forward regularly if Sunderland line up with one striker. No one will know how to deal with it. The centre forward lets him go, the attacking midfielder has a job to do on Mascherano, the next midfielder doesn't want to leave Barry/Gerrard (presuming we use this 433 and sign Gaz Baz) and suddenly whether the centre half has the ball or not, we're outnumbering them in the final third. I’d be very disappointed if this didn’t happen regularly at home at the very least and by regularly I don’t mean twice a game but six times, seven times. It also can’t just be Agger as teams will get a plan together. Let’s see all of our centre halves be liberated to at least be a nuisance.

 

http://www.ynwa.tv/forum/index.php?showtopic=138109

 

On this front the above thread – which inevitably in these days of nonsense found itself ignored – Sacchi, the coach Benitez is believed to be closest, discusses universality of positions and tactical flexibility. Pushing beyond the centre half issue this is what the 433 model as mooted can offer us. Gaz Baz and Gerrard are inherently playing two positions (centre and wide) simultaneously and perhaps even five if one allows the idea of them being able to interchange with their fullbacks, with Mascherano and with the forwards wide of Torres. This suggests further why Alonso finds himself being the unfortunate man; short of the flexibility of both of these and the recovery pace of Mascherano should he push himself out of position.

 

Combine this flexibility in midfield with a forward line that can drop back without the ball under times of great pressure and close down when we need to get out and can in and of itself operate to the same principles as Gerrard and Barry with the ball. Imagine Keane wide of Torres on one side and Babel on the other. When Babel has it wide left, Keane is behind/alongside Torres in a traditional front two. When it’s wide right, vice versa. Torres runs a channel both can get inside the box; say he runs a channel to the right, Gerrard and the full back can support, two attacking players get in and Barry goes where he goes.

 

The difference between this and the 4-6-0 notion implied in the link is Torres. He is an out and out front man and we shouldn’t try to get around this and indeed I’d argue we won’t. However, is this a bad thing? Logically, this makes sense – as we have a goalkeeper we should have a point man at the other end, the focal around which this works.

 

The frustrating thing about losing Alonso is that he’s arguably the player we have with the best brain to be able to direct these operations. The next frustrating thing is that we are clearly going to need a squad which will be intelligent and athletic enough to play the game like this week in, week out. Of those names not mentioned so far, Lucas could be smart enough but is he fit enough? Kuyt appears to have both (could still do with a yard of pace), Benayoun likewise. Aurelio has intelligence about him and, as said elsewhere by George Lees could cover Barry as well as left back. There’s also a question mark over Babel but a question mark which must, arguably, be borne for now. We still need a few more players who will be able to cope with football played at this level.

 

This is the way I see us going, a goalkeeper, nine players who can interchange - some more interchangeable than others and Torres up top. It’s a brave move but we haven’t got United’s squad or Chelsea’s spending power – we’ve got to innovate our way into winning what we need to win.

 

Thanks for pointing out that article, didn't see it first time around, just bought that book. I think you're right about why Barry is coming in for Alonso, I think Rafa probably sees him as a left sided Gerrard (albeit not as good) somone who can float between being a defensive midfielder, a left wing back, a left winger and an attacking midfielder. The last couple of seasons have seen Gerrard becoming more adept and finding space in the final third of the pitch, usually in the inside right channel, and I think this is down to Rafa's work. He used to demand the ball wherever he was on the pitch, but now he's prepared to step out of the game for a minute to lose his man, Barry seems to be good at this already, he was getting into "Gerrard-esque" positions for Villa in the second half of the season when they were playing 4-3-3. I agree with the way you talk about the front 3 working too, Kuyt got into more scoring positions while playing out wide than he did while playing through the middle.

 

It's interesting that Sacchi is so against playing 2 defensive midfielders because Rafa's preference for Lucas over Alonso towards the end of the seasons seems to indicate he prefers a more mobile "universal" player himself.

 

I like this, more of this kind of ting.

 

Quite agree that we've been looking for the two, three, four or five roles for many of the players on the pitch, but have suffered from not having players capable. Often this is mistaken as strikers playing too deep, or wingers tracking back to much, or over caution. What it's about is players having the engine, pace and workrate to run into great positons and recover to get back goalside as well as cover others when they go on.

 

I know it's not a popular shout, but Lampard is a great example of this kind of player, and his goal in the CL final a typical bit of end product. His thing is simple to think of, but very hard to pull off. It's essentially being able to play conventional midfield for most of a move, most of the game, but then find the right time to bomb on off the ball at high pace in the hope that you'll be in a strikers position when the move develops, and then being able to get back goal side in a hurry when it doesn't. He's not playing in the hole, he's not given the luxury of minimal defensive responsibility, he does what he does from central midfield, being involved in a lot of the build up play, doing his fair share of water carrying.

 

Yeah, I've been saying for a couple of years that the difference betwen us and Chelsea and United is we have fewer "game-breaker" players who can step outside the normal rhythm of a game and change it. We used to only have Gerrard and to a lesser extent Garcia but now we have Gerrard, Torres and to a lesser extent Yossi and Babel.

 

In conclusion : good attacking teams, especially the successful ones in England, seem to be adept at getting their defenders well into the opposition half.

 

I hate to keep harping on about it, but Man Yoo and Arsenal are clearly fine attacking teams (in the style and tradition of the great Liverpool teams) adept at getting players forward, and crucially, in the box, in numbers, when it counts. They are effective, not just because they have good players, but because they attack with gay 'effin' abandon. That means getting your defenders forward.

 

Rafa has myriad qualities, but I am far from convinced that he gets how the 'English' attack. I am convinced he is anchored to the Italian tradition that pays, IMO, disproportionate respect to the defensive aspects of the game.

 

We can harp on all we like about formations, but until the manager gets what it takes to truly take on the morass of mediocrity in the premiership, I don't think we'll progress.

 

I don't think it's necessarily about getting defenders into the opposition half, more about finding space to operate in. Getting defenders breaking from the back is one way to do this as it pulls the opposition's shape apart, but it's not the only one, just like having wingers who can beat the full back are a #10/#7 who can drop off the front line aren't the only way.

[CaptainXabi]

In conclusion : good attacking teams, especially the successful ones in England, seem to be adept at getting their defenders well into the opposition half.

 

I hate to keep harping on about it, but Man Yoo and Arsenal are clearly fine attacking teams (in the style and tradition of the great Liverpool teams) adept at getting players forward, and crucially, in the box, in numbers, when it counts. They are effective, not just because they have good players, but because they attack with gay 'effin' abandon. That means getting your defenders forward.

 

Rafa has myriad qualities, but I am far from convinced that he gets how the 'English' attack. I am convinced he is anchored to the Italian tradition that pays, IMO, disproportionate respect to the defensive aspects of the game.

 

We can harp on all we like about formations, but until the manager gets what it takes to truly take on the morass of mediocrity in the premiership, I don't think we'll progress.

I think Rafa is starting to get it though, and I suspect that's why Rafa is buying more England-based players. That way he can teach them the Italian part and let their natural instincts do the English stuff. Even the foreign players we buy these days are fairly "English" in their approach to football.

[fabfive]

Forget italian, the pasta nice though.

 

What we want is "total football" brazilian style.

 

 

 

 

Rafa has aid he wants players who are flexible enough to be able to play more than one postion. Gerrard can play left-center-right. Babbel and Benayoun-left or right or in the hole behind the striker. Pennant , left or right side. Lucas center or in the hole behind the striker. Mascherano is defensive lynchpin who does get forward a time or two, more goals in that lad i tell you.

 

Now we're adding attacking fullbacks. And as Knox says he'd like to see Agger and Skrtel bomb forward. Me, too. Maybe not as often but when play dictates. The element of suprise as opposed to other teams waiting for it because we do it 6-7 times a match.

 

So total footbal Rafa style then.