Liverpool fans and the eras they grew up in...

[stressederic]

This is something I've been thinking about for a while now and is largely built upon things I've noticed from the forums and discussions with other Liverpool fans.

 

Firstly I just want to say this is all my opinion and I'm not saying there is a superfan model we should all abide by or that there is a "right" type of fan.

 

However I've been wondering, in regards to peoples expectations for each new season, how much of an influence the period they grew up in has. Particularly in reference to the Souness-Evans period.

 

They way things seem to me there are almost 3 eras or groups of fans. Those who grew up from Shankly-Dalglish. Those who had Souness and Evans and those who had Evans and Houllier.

 

In reference to the first group, you're growing up at a time when Liverpool are pretty f***ing good. Yes there are years when we don't win anything, Shankly had a bit of barren patch there, but the overwhelming memory of that time is that we won things. We won league titles, we won European Cups, FA Cups, the lot. Liverpool are the most succesful team in Britain.

 

In the Souness era the team has been dismantled and, to be blunt, a lot of wretched s*** has been brought in. We win the FA Cup in 1992 and then the league cup in 1995 under Evans. Aside from that there really isn't anything to write home about. We come bloody close to winning the league in 1997 only for David James to go mental. Liverpool are not very succesful.

 

From the end of the Evans era into Houllier's time things do change however. We win things. 5 trophies in a year, finish 2nd in the league. Look like we might be a force in both the Premiership and Europe. However Liverpool's achievements are slightly mocked by our rivals (plastic treble etc). Eventually it ends badly, Liverpool go backwards but we did have a good run there.

 

Now I'm from the middle group. I remember wearing the old 1990 kit, I've got the season on video but I don't remember any of it. My early memories of us are of Liverpool under Souness and it's not a pleasant memory. However (and I don't think I'm alone in this) it had a big affect on my expectations every season. I've never expected Liverpool to win the league. Actually if I'm honest I've never expected Liverpool to end the season with any trophies at all. I've wanted us to, felt confident about some things (often been proved wrong) but never expected it.

 

When we were discussing Houllier and the Treble a few weeks back I said that I didn't like much of the criticism of GH because I was just grateful to bloody win something. It's still true today. It wasn't much fun growing up at school during the Souness (and some of the Evans) years and because we weren't winning anything I've always immensley enjoyed it when we do but have never thought we had a divine right to do so.

 

Liverpool have a fantastic history that we can all be proud of. But in many ways it's a history that belongs to the Club and the older supporters. It doesn't belong to me.

 

I think people of my age group inhabit a strange little bubble in comparison to others.

 

Those Reds who grew up from Shankly-Dalglish want and expect trophies. Why shouldn't they? They've watched Liverpool win 18 league titles, they should want to see us do it again.

 

Those fans who had Evans-Houllier had success. They had trophies, but at the same time people took the piss out of those trophies. In 2001 we won the Treble and United won the league. I know plenty of United fans who took the piss "plastic treble" etc. It's success, but it's success with a condition. "You've done well, but you're not great yet."

 

Having your achievements demeaned is annoying and difficult.

 

So I look at each pre-season on here and we often get some strange discussions, debates and (at times) arguments going on and I wonder how much of it is based upon these 3 groups interacting and not really being able to fully appreciate the other's viewpoints.

 

Shankly-Dalglish (understandably) view the league as a big part of the club and want to see Liverpool winning it again. Some expect Liverpool to win it, because that's what Liverpool do.

 

Souness-Evans have never seen us win the league. We grew up at a time when Liverpool were actually pretty s*** at times. Trophies are great, everyone likes trophies, but from the barren years we had growing up there is no real expectation that we'll win something every year.

 

Evans-Houllier have a bit of a mixed bag. Barren years and success. But the success, whilst nice, isn't something that will shut up our rivals. United, Arsenal and Chelsea all won the league. Why the hell can't we? It's not expectation of winning the league. It's more wanting to do it more then anything else. Firstly to celebrate it but then secondly to shut everyone else up.

 

Obviously all of the above is the ruminations of one (probably insane) man but I do think there's a point buried in there. By and large I've always been very patient, it's just my nature, but when it comes to the league in particular it does manifest itself more. I want the league title don't get me wrong, I desperately want it. But I honestly have no expectation of us winning it. I want us to. I hope we do. Many years I think we might, but I've never thought "this is our year."

 

I wonder how many others there are like me. Or like the first group, or the third. And when we get various threads arguing over "what should be acceptable for Liverpool" I wonder how much of the disagreements stems from what we grew up with.

[Guest Scot]

This is something I've been thinking about for a while now and is largely built upon things I've noticed from the forums and discussions with other Liverpool fans.

 

Firstly I just want to say this is all my opinion and I'm not saying there is a superfan model we should all abide by or that there is a "right" type of fan.

 

However I've been wondering, in regards to peoples expectations for each new season, how much of an influence the period they grew up in has. Particularly in reference to the Souness-Evans period.

 

They way things seem to me there are almost 3 eras or groups of fans. Those who grew up from Shankly-Dalglish. Those who had Souness and Evans and those who had Evans and Houllier.

 

In reference to the first group, you're growing up at a time when Liverpool are pretty f***ing good. Yes there are years when we don't win anything, Shankly had a bit of barren patch there, but the overwhelming memory of that time is that we won things. We won league titles, we won European Cups, FA Cups, the lot. Liverpool are the most succesful team in Britain.

 

In the Souness era the team has been dismantled and, to be blunt, a lot of wretched s*** has been brought in. We win the FA Cup in 1992 and then the league cup in 1995 under Evans. Aside from that there really isn't anything to write home about. We come bloody close to winning the league in 1997 only for David James to go mental. Liverpool are not very succesful.

 

From the end of the Evans era into Houllier's time things do change however. We win things. 5 trophies in a year, finish 2nd in the league. Look like we might be a force in both the Premiership and Europe. However Liverpool's achievements are slightly mocked by our rivals (plastic treble etc). Eventually it ends badly, Liverpool go backwards but we did have a good run there.

 

Now I'm from the middle group. I remember wearing the old 1990 kit, I've got the season on video but I don't remember any of it. My early memories of us are of Liverpool under Souness and it's not a pleasant memory. However (and I don't think I'm alone in this) it had a big affect on my expectations every season. I've never expected Liverpool to win the league. Actually if I'm honest I've never expected Liverpool to end the season with any trophies at all. I've wanted us to, felt confident about some things (often been proved wrong) but never expected it.

 

When we were discussing Houllier and the Treble a few weeks back I said that I didn't like much of the criticism of GH because I was just grateful to bloody win something. It's still true today. It wasn't much fun growing up at school during the Souness (and some of the Evans) years and because we weren't winning anything I've always immensley enjoyed it when we do but have never thought we had a divine right to do so.

 

Liverpool have a fantastic history that we can all be proud of. But in many ways it's a history that belongs to the Club and the older supporters. It doesn't belong to me.

 

I think people of my age group inhabit a strange little bubble in comparison to others.

 

Those Reds who grew up from Shankly-Dalglish want and expect trophies. Why shouldn't they? They've watched Liverpool win 18 league titles, they should want to see us do it again.

 

Those fans who had Evans-Houllier had success. They had trophies, but at the same time people took the piss out of those trophies. In 2001 we won the Treble and United won the league. I know plenty of United fans who took the piss "plastic treble" etc. It's success, but it's success with a condition. "You've done well, but you're not great yet."

 

Having your achievements demeaned is annoying and difficult.

 

So I look at each pre-season on here and we often get some strange discussions, debates and (at times) arguments going on and I wonder how much of it is based upon these 3 groups interacting and not really being able to fully appreciate the other's viewpoints.

 

Shankly-Dalglish (understandably) view the league as a big part of the club and want to see Liverpool winning it again. Some expect Liverpool to win it, because that's what Liverpool do.

 

Souness-Evans have never seen us win the league. We grew up at a time when Liverpool were actually pretty s*** at times. Trophies are great, everyone likes trophies, but from the barren years we had growing up there is no real expectation that we'll win something every year.

 

Evans-Houllier have a bit of a mixed bag. Barren years and success. But the success, whilst nice, isn't something that will shut up our rivals. United, Arsenal and Chelsea all won the league. Why the hell can't we? It's not expectation of winning the league. It's more wanting to do it more then anything else. Firstly to celebrate it but then secondly to shut everyone else up.

 

Obviously all of the above is the ruminations of one (probably insane) man but I do think there's a point buried in there. By and large I've always been very patient, it's just my nature, but when it comes to the league in particular it does manifest itself more. I want the league title don't get me wrong, I desperately want it. But I honestly have no expectation of us winning it. I want us to. I hope we do. Many years I think we might, but I've never thought "this is our year."

 

I wonder how many others there are like me. Or like the first group, or the third. And when we get various threads arguing over "what should be acceptable for Liverpool" I wonder how much of the disagreements stems from what we grew up with.

 

Good post, but I don't think I entirely agree with your conclusions. I think that within those groups there is a range of opinions. I'd say that maybe the youngest of the groups is the least tolerant of what they consider failure. (What follows is generalisation, right so I'm not saying this is all true of all people, but really what I see). They have little understanding of what it takes to build a team, maybe to build up a club. It all seems to come down to money/investment/players. Coaching is a little-respected thing. Solution is you go out and buy 'world-class players' to build the 'best team'. That's not entirely wrong, but it's not all of the story. We've spent ten years knocking players like Wes Brown, Ray Parlour, Wiltord, O'Shea, Fletcher, Nevilles, Fortune...etc...etc...and being confused that we have better at those positions and don't win the league. I think those of us who grew up watching regular championship-winning teams got used to seeing a blend of real genius with more workmanlike sorts that knew their job, did their job quite well and then moved on after a bit in many cases. They weren't the best players in their position in the country, maybe not necessarily the best at the club.

 

It's an interesting post though, mate.

[Kuyt-fever]

Boss post , probably the best intro thread since the great effergie thread. I guess I fall into the 1st category I grow up in the middle of the Shankly era but we went about 6 years without winning anything and Shankly always made sure that trophies were cherished.

 

We've got a great thread in the making but I think it may turn into people slating Ant then into an anti-Rafa thread. Lets hope it does not go that way.

[Crazy Horse]

I think that fans who grew up pre-Sky are less likely to be muppets. Whether there's a direct link there or not I'm not sure.

[Guest Snorky]

First match was under Bill, but I can remember the Paisley years better.

[Leo No.8]

I was 30 in October so I had a small taste of being the very best, but not when I was old enough to understand how much it meant, or how long I'd have to wait to us win the title again so I would count myself of the Souness generation as those were my truly formative years as a proper supporter.

 

First season ticket at about 7 years old when Kenny was manager and we did the double, then the Barnes and Beardsley era when at times we looked pretty much unbeatable. I remember us drawing with Sheffield Wednesday (I think it was) at home during the 1985/86 season and not being able to get my head around it - we were supposed to win every week!

 

Started standing on The Kop in the Souness years, which brings mixed emotions. Some great memories of being packed in there and the incredible atmosphere every single week rather than just for European games. What happened on the pitch wasn't so great and there were some humiliating losses at Anfield against the likes of Bolton and Bristol City in the cup.

 

I think you could sum up how much the players let the fans down during that period when they somehow managed to lose to Norwich on the last day of the standing Kop as it was, despite an incredible, hugely emotional atmosphere. When we reproduce it these days for big European matches our team is inspired to invincibility against the likes of Juve, Barca and Inter who it's fair to say are probably a little stronger than Norwich were (although they weren't a bad outfit at the time).

 

Evans brought some good football at home but no really solid success, and we were still a joke in Europe losing to the likes of Brondby and Strasbourg in humiliating fashion. However I still have extremely fond memories of the Houllier days; he brought a lot of pride and defensive strength to the side as well as bringing the club as a whole into the 21st century.

 

And (something which Rafa took to a whole new level) Gerard gave those of us who started going to the games during the ban our great European nights back, and made us a force to be reckoned with again. The treble season was my greatest as a match going fan I'd say, and I could never summon the vitriol many seemed to for Gerard Houllier when the wheels came off and in that terrible last season it became clear his time as manager was at an end.

 

How could I after he gave me so much? I won't be as dramatic as to say he nearly gave his life for the club, but he lived and breathed Liverpool during his time here and his passion rubbed off on the players during the majority of his tenure until by the end it had become desparation which was a terribly sad way for a great relationship to end.

 

And now we have Rafa who is like Houllier 2.0 upgraded. Again a very pragmatic man with a meticulous approach, but he has taken us further on making us the most feared team in European club football and developing us into more of a footballing side than we were under Gerard, although the process is still ongoing.

 

It has been over twenty years on an incredible rollercoaster with many, many emotionally charged moments. I hope Rafa is the man to bring this particular supporter's journey full circle to when we were the best around under Kenny. I believe in Rafa, and as I have done under Souness, Evans and Houllier I hope for next season to be the one that sees the title come back to Anfield, because hope and belief are really what being a football fan is all about.

 

We can only do a little to inspire our players with our voices, and at the end of the day it all comes down to the players who are so honoured as to wear our shirt. It's the anticipation during the summer, and every time you walk up to the ground that we'll emerge victorious that no-one can take away from you, the hope.

 

If as I have you've grown to understand and love the game and Liverpool Football Club through the days when the title has seemed like a dream you can almost touch but is always just out of reach then I don't see how you can expect it, I don't. But we have still been so lucky to be part of so many great days and nights, and blessed with plenty of trophies since Gerard Houllier arrived including perhaps the greatest victory of all in Istanbul, so we still know all about emerging victorious.

 

So back to your original (excllent) question and post Eric, I don't actually expect the title each year the way some seem to, but most seasons if you ask me who will win the league in August I'll say Liverpool. Part of me believes it but most of me just hopes for it, and whether that is down to the era I grew up with Liverpool Football Club or my nature I don't know, but I'd say probably a bit of both is the case for most.

 

Aptly one of my favourite parts of my favourite film is addressed to a 'Red' and sums up my feelings on hope and sticking with it though some dark years have gone by, and it goes like this (slightly adapted form the original Andy Dufresne letter).

 

Dear Red, If you're reading this, we still haven't brought the title home to Anfield. And if you've come this far, maybe you're willing to come a little further. You remember the name of the song, don't you? We need all our good men to help keep this project on wheels. I'll keep an eye out for you on match day and my voice at the ready.

 

Remember, Red. Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things and no good thing ever dies. I will be hoping that what we all wish for finds us, finds us under Rafa, and it will before too many more years go by. Your Friend, Leo.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Leo No.8

[Guest Ant]

Doesn't really matter what era you grew up in when it comes to supporting Liverpool.

 

Football changes with the times IMO.

[The walters step over]

I think that fans who grew up pre-Sky are less likely to be muppets. Whether there's a direct link there or not I'm not sure.

 

Yay, I'm not a muppet

 

First memories are the early '80s (especially Rome '84).Started going casually around 87/88 with family so I probably saw arguably the best team we ever had. Then got season tickets as presents just in time for Souness and the likes of Bristol,Bolton, Genoa et al.

 

In the late '80s if you'd have said that we'd have gone so long without a title I'd have laughed at you there and then.

[Bailo]

Doesn't really matter what era you grew up in when it comes to supporting Liverpool.

 

Football changes with the times IMO.

Surely if you grew up during the Souness/Evans years you can appreciate what we're having now?

[sutty]

I was a STH for Kenny's first season so I've seen a really mixed bag.

 

Ant has half a point though, whilst you can talk about team building and coaching etc, times have changed and the methods that worked in the past don't work now. You won't see a Brian Clough bringing a team up from old div 2 and winning the league with minimal changes unless the climate changes considerably.

 

But expectations wise I think Ant has missed the point. I dunno, I've seen us lift the league a few times and I want it again, but I seem to have more tolerance than Ant say, who has never seen it.

[sutty]

Surely if you grew up during the Souness/Evans years you can appreciate what we're having now?

 

The flip side being if you've never seen success I suppose.

 

Could go either way. Plus listening to Kev go on about the glory days when you've not seen it yourself must be atrocious

[Guest Snorky]

The flip side being if you've never seen success I suppose.

 

Could go either way. Plus listening to Kev go on about the glory days when you've not seen it yourself must be atrocious

 

I hardly ever go on about the glory days

[Bailo]

The flip side being if you've never seen success I suppose.

 

Could go either way. Plus listening to Kev go on about the glory days when you've not seen it yourself must be atrocious

I guess - though I just about remember us winning the league in 89/90, but only on the radio and I didn't see many games that year. I've never seen league success really.

[Guest Ant]

I agree that different fans from different era have different perspectives, but perspective or not football changes with the times.

 

Some aspects of it are hard i.e financialy, fans are struggling to come to terms with the all singing all dancing EPL.

 

Yet I don't know football any different, I enjoy it.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Ant

[Hassony]

I agree that different fans from different era have different perspectives, but perspective or not football changes with the times.

 

As hard as some aspects of it are i.e financiall, fans are struggling to come to terms with the all singing all dancing EPL.

 

What does that mean?

[Guest Snorky]

What does that mean?

 

Football and fans attitudes change over the years. And those like myself brought up in one era find it hard to adjust to this one, and those brought up in this era find it difficult to understand and comprehend the past.

[sutty]

What does that mean?

I'm curious as well

 

If he means that the rising cost of football might have changed people's attitudes, he might well have a point.

[sutty]

Football and fans attitudes change over the years. And those like myself brought up in one era find it hard to adjust to this one, and those brought up in this era find it difficult to understand and comprehend the past.

 

Ant hasn't though. I'm curious to know what he means.

 

I also think he should be shoed for saying EPL.

[pipnasty]

I agree that different fans from different era have different perspectives, but perspective or not football changes with the times.

 

Some aspects of it are hard i.e financialy, fans are struggling to come to terms with the all singing all dancing EPL.

 

Yet I don't know football any different, I enjoy it.

 

 

Do you think that there are a set of shared values between Liverpool supporters?

[Cobs]

Surely if you grew up during the Souness/Evans years you can appreciate what we're having now?

I grew up in the Paisley era and can appreciate what we have now - doesn't mean i'm satisfied with it

 

 

I'm not sure it matters what era you grew up in (other than Murph no-one has seen us lift all 18) we ALL want Liverpool Football Club to be League Champions again

[Guest Ant]

Do you think that there are a set of shared values between Liverpool supporters?

 

Of course.

[Rich Gobey]

I don't find it hard to 'adjust' to the eras that came before. Legend and folklore are part of the games rich tapestry and history and should be appreciated as such. It depends on your expectations and how you manage them.

 

Having said that, I'm certain that I'd enjoy a title win more now than I did when I was younger. But that would be for all sorts of associated reasons to do with enjoying it with others who have waited a similar time for it.

 

Football isn't really any different now than it was when i was a kid in the 70's, sure the packaging is a lot more glitzy and the coverage is ubiquitous now, but the game itself isn't all that different.

[pipnasty]

Of course.

 

 

Would you say that these set of shared values represent what is often referred to as 'The Liverpool Way'?

[Guest Ant]

Would you say that these set of shared values represent what is often referred to as 'The Liverpool Way'?

 

One persons Liverpool Way is anothers Liverpool 'nay'.

 

We all share certain values, wether you could call that the Liverpool way is another.

[Kahnee]

Is there a 10-words-or-less version of Eric's meanderings? One of Leo's reply wouldn't go amiss either...