Wenger

[sutty]

Does his job come under pressure?

 

What do you reckon?

 

I asked an arsenal fan (I refuse to call them gooners, it sounds s****) and he got well defensive about it.

 

But at what point will he be under the same pressure as Benitez is seen to be, for example?

[Bailo]

Never. They play beautiful football, he's won silverware consistently since he's been there and he's brought through millions of youngsters whilst spending absolutely nothing.

 

Rafa could only dream of his level of success.

 

[muleskinner]

Next season the press will get on his case if they don't win the CL this time IMO. I know a couple of gooners who are already getting a bit fed up of him, his posturing and seeming refusal to spend big money on the side.

[sutty]

The one I spoke to was very much of the opinion that Wenger has a job for life because of the great football etc, and he wouldn't have it that top clubs are top clubs because they win trophies.

 

If he has money and fails to understand that Eboue as a top class right midfielder and Rosicky is not somebody capable of playing a full season then he's asking to come under pressure

 

To be fair to him, they've lost Eduardo and Van Persie limiting his attacking options somewhat, but his squad is pretty skinny.

[Gilps]

The last league title and a first European Cup final are probably still recent enough to stop the majority asking serious questions for a couple of seasons yet.

 

Most seem to be buying into the idea that this young side is developing nicel and will properly challenge within another year or so. I'm not convinced myself, but you can see why his past record buys him a certain amount of faith.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Gilps

[pipnasty]

  Gilps said:

The last league title and a first European Cup final are probably still recent enough to stop the majority asking serious questions for a couple of seasons yet.

 

 

If only Arsenal fans were as good as we are, they would have been asking for Mourinho by now.

[sutty]

  Gilps said:

The last league title and a first European Cup final are probably still recent enough to stop the majority asking serious questions for a couple of seasons yet.

 

Most seem to be buying into the idea that this young side is developing nicel and will properly challenge within another year or so. I'm not convinced myself, but you can see why his past record buys him a certain amount of faith.

 

A first European cup in 21 years has got nowhere near that sort of level of patience, not just from us but from the press as well.

 

I'm interested in the press on this as much as anything. There's scope for them to go after him. Increasingly delusional post match statements, a failure to challenge for the league. It's like Houllier's last season all over again. And they're both French

[Gilps]

The press could conceivably turn on him soon, especially those elements for whom the lack of English players is a real issue. The longer they go without success, the less "excuse" he'll have for that in their eyes.

[Gilps]

  sutty said:

A first European cup in 21 years has got nowhere near that sort of level of patience, not just from us but from the press as well.

 

The context is quite different for the two clubs though. Pretty much the default press story has been "Liverpool in Crisis" for 15 odd years now. Short of a genuine challenge for the league appearing quickly, that was unlikely to change.

 

There's less excuse for the fans' lack of patience, but the reality of going too long without a challenge is still there, subconsciously at least. By contrast, for the Arsenal fans, Wenger has provided probably their most successful era - certainly their longest extended period of being title challengers. They've never had a European pedigree to speak of either, so there was never anything to live up to in that regard.

[sutty]

  Gilps said:

The press could conceivably turn on him soon, especially those elements for whom the lack of English players is a real issue. The longer they go without success, the less "excuse" he'll have for that in their eyes.

 

That angle is already getting a bit of a mention and if you read any of the post match stuff last Wednesday, Walcott was talked up massively with that as the agenda.

[sutty]

  Gilps said:

The context is quite different for the two clubs though. Pretty much the default press story has been "Liverpool in Crisis" for 15 odd years now. Short of a genuine challenge for the league appearing quickly, that was unlikely to change.

 

There's less excuse for the fans' lack of patience, but the reality of going too long without a challenge is still there, subconsciously at least. By contrast, for the Arsenal fans, Wenger has provided probably their most successful era - certainly their longest extended period of being title challengers. They've never had a European pedigree to speak of either, so there was never anything to live up to in that regard.

 

I don't buy that though

 

When Rafa took over Liverpool, Arsenal were champions.

 

In the intervening years Arsenal have gone backwards whereas we have (at times marginally) improved as regards the league and massively improved as regards Europe

 

They may win the champions league this year and if so then any pressure disappears.

[Gunga Din]

He's transformed Arsenal. they were going backwards at a rate of knots before he came, he brought them on field success and its that success that Arsenal have capitalised on that have enabled them to build a big f*** off stadium. the fact that he has won 3 titles and re invented he club to me would suggest he has a job as long as he likes

[Gilps]

Oh, I'm not arguing that they've gone backwards. They've gone from that 10 year period of never being worse than 2nd to 3 years of not challenging. That previous period of sustained challenges has bought him time, both with press and the fans.

 

He's earned the benefit of the doubt to a certain degree that this side can back to where his previous sides were. That won't last forever, but I can see why its lasted up until now. Especially given that up until a month ago, it looked like this new side had grown to the extent that they might win the league.

[sutty]

  Gunga Din said:

He's transformed Arsenal. they were going backwards at a rate of knots before he came, he brought them on field success and its that success that Arsenal have capitalised on that have enabled them to build a big f*** off stadium. the fact that he has won 3 titles and re invented he club to me would suggest he has a job as long as he likes

 

I don't doubt his achievements - but football culture has changed as evidenced by our own club.

 

Knowing your stance on Rafa as a match going red - do you not see why I ask this question? Arsenal were booed off at half time on Saturday as well.

[sutty]

  Gilps said:

Oh, I'm not arguing that they've gone backwards. They've gone from that 10 year period of never being worse than 2nd to 3 years of not challenging. That previous period of sustained challenges has bought him time, both with press and the fans.

 

He's earned the benefit of the doubt to a certain degree that this side can back to where his previous sides were. That won't last forever, but I can see why its lasted up until now. Especially given that up until a month ago, it looked like this new side had grown to the extent that they might win the league.

 

 

This I agree with

 

The question is how much doubt has he earned the benefit of. If he were to go trophyless this season and next would people be talking about a change of management at Arsenal?

[Gilps]

  sutty said:

This I agree with

 

The question is how much doubt has he earned the benefit of. If he were to go trophyless this season and next would people be talking about a change of management at Arsenal?

 

They probably should be by that stage. As I say, it did look like this side was coming good when they were six points clear a month ago. If it now becomes increasingly clear that they aren't, and that the last couple of years weren't just a period of transition or whatever, then questions should be being asked.

 

It is easy to underestimate the regard in which he is held by the majority of their fans though - rightly so to a degree, but it goes beyond what's reasonable. He's like their bloody messiah. It will take a hell of a lot for the fans to really turn on him.

[sutty]

  Gilps said:

They probably should be by that stage. As I say, it did look like this side was coming good when they were six points clear a month ago. If it now becomes increasingly clear that they aren't, and that the last couple of years weren't just a period of transition or whatever, then questions should be being asked.

 

It is easy to underestimate the regard in which he is held by the majority of their fans though - rightly so to a degree, but it goes beyond what's reasonable. He's like their bloody messiah. It will take a hell of a lot for the fans to really turn on him.

 

As I said to Wayne, they were booed off at half time on Saturday.

 

They do play nice football, it's pleasing on the eye but he has refused to strengthen that squad with the money he had available.

 

Now we rested players going in to tomorrows game - the players they bought in were garbage. And they were the proper squad players behind their 1st team and they had nobody to bring in for Flamini and Fabregas. It's a pretty poor situation to be in and it was so forseeable. That's why I don't understand the lack of criticism for him.

[floyd]

Anyone that built that stadium single handedly, like the press tell us, deserves a job for life.

[surf]

is wenger refusing to spend money or does he have no money to spend?

[sutty]

  surf said:

is wenger refusing to spend money or does he have no money to spend?

 

 

He has said that he has money but doesn't think it is necessary to spend it

[Gunga Din]

  sutty said:

I don't doubt his achievements - but football culture has changed as evidenced by our own club.

 

Knowing your stance on Rafa as a match going red - do you not see why I ask this question? Arsenal were booed off at half time on Saturday as well.

 

Arsenal up to now have had a better season than us.

they could be right back in the title race and a European Cup semi this time next week. Our season could end tomorow night. Wengers done a cracking job, and having a pop because he hasnt spent money when you dont actually know how much money was available to him, and if the players he wanted were available is madness. I'd rather a manager held onto the cash rather than just spending it for spendings sake.

[Benitez]

  surf said:

is wenger refusing to spend money or does he have no money to spend?

 

 

he has money, and he spends a decent amount of it.

[sutty]

  Gunga Din said:

Arsenal up to now have had a better season than us.

they could be right back in the title race and a European Cup semi this time next week. Our season could end tomorow night. Wengers done a cracking job, and having a pop because he hasnt spent money when you dont actually know how much money was available to him, and if the players he wanted were available is madness. I'd rather a manager held onto the cash rather than just spending it for spendings sake.

 

And conversely their season could be over by next Sunday and we could be in a champions league semi. I think they are stick on to get beat by united next week tbh.

 

I'm not having a pop at Wenger. I'm asking how many trophyless years he'd be allowed. He's said that he has money to spend. Well Fabregas is telling everybody he is blowing out of his a*** and there is nobody there to come in for him.

 

Is it not reasonable to question this strategy? Arsenal's season is very very similar to ours as things stand. With us, our 6 game run of not picking up anywhere near enough points came earlier than theirs did.

[Hassony]

  Benitez said:

he has money, and he spends a decent amount of it.

he himself said recently that he has up to £70m that he can spend on players

[sutty]

  Hassony said:

he himself said recently that he has up to £70m that he can spend on players

 

Not that that will pacify Wayne, as Arsene neither rotates nor marks zonally.