Some facts that speak for themselves

[Guest Snorky]

Goals conceeded in PL.

 

Arsenal 18.

Man Utd 14.

Chelsea 17.

Everton 23.

Liverpool 17.

Villa 34.

Man City 29.

Portsmouth 26.

 

Conclusion:

 

Joint second best defence in the league. Do you want me to repeat that ?

 

JOINT SECOND BEST IN THE LEAGUE

 

Meaning that our defence is performing to a standard that is totally acceptable for a team wanting to win the league, there can only be minimal improvement.

 

 

Goals scored in PL:

 

Arsenal 54.

Man Utd 50.

Chelsea 38.

Everton 41.

Liverpool 40.

Villa 48.

Man City 34.

Portsmouth 36.

 

Conclusion:

 

5th highest in the PL. I wont repeat that. But if we are to challenge for the title we need to score more.

 

Meaning our forwards are either not performing or the midfield is not creating the chances and getting enough goals themselves. These are the areas we need to improve.

 

In general, it's two fold, it's the way we attack and the standard of forwards that need to change. Obviously Gerrard and Torres are exempt from this as I dread to think where we would be without their contribution this season.

 

So there you have it, it's the way we attack (formation/tactics) and it's the standard of forwards at the club.

 

Or, it's Carra's fault as he's playing s*** and hoofs it all the time.

[Gunga Din]

we have faield to score in 7. we have been one nil up in numerous other games and lost points because of our inabilty to kill teams off. thats the crux of it. not the defence.

[realtarragona]

Going forward is obviously the main problem in our side but Carragher has still had quite a poor season, 2nd best defence or not.

[Guest Snorky]

we have faield to score in 7. we have been one nil up in numerous other games and lost points because of our inabilty to kill teams off. thats the crux of it. not the defence.

 

DON'T

LET

FACTS

GET

IN

THE

WAY

OF

A

GOOD

CARRA

BASHING

FFS

[sutty]

we have faield to score in 7. we have been one nil up in numerous other games and lost points because of our inabilty to kill teams off. thats the crux of it. not the defence.

 

 

I think it is both personally

 

If you are struggling going forward then keep a clean sheet and win 1-0. League winning sides do this

[Hightown Phil]

The thing is though Kev, just because we've conceded relatively few goals doesn't mean the defence is immune to criticism. I'm not blaming anyone per se, but how many goals have we conceded that were sloppy and avoidable? Ask certain players if they'd have done something differently, and for more than 10 of those goals, I'll venture the answer's yes.

[sutty]

DON'T

LET

FACTS

GET

IN

THE

WAY

OF

A

GOOD

CARRA

BASHING

FFS

 

Carragher isn't above criticism any more than anybody else is.

 

I love the man, but his form has been very patchy this season

[Guest Snorky]

Going forward is obviously the main problem in our side but Carragher has still had quite a poor season, 2nd best defence or not.

 

Riise has had a s*** season, but he's still played his part in that defence. And I don't believe I typed that.

 

Carra is still the kingpin of our defence, and watch us struggle on Saturday without him

[matty]

People aren't really blaming Carragher as far as I can see. Just pointing out that, like others, he's not having a great season by his own high standards.

 

Problem is, without Agger, and with Carra and Riise, we lack defenders who can really do something different with the ball at the feet. It makes a massive difference to have defenders who can not only defend, but play the ball, bring it out, run with it. We've missed Agger a lot.

[sean]

People aren't really blaming Carragher as far as I can see. Just pointing out that, like others, he's not having a great season by his own high standards.

 

Problem is, without Agger, and with Carra and Riise, we lack defenders who can really do something different with the ball at the feet. It makes a massive difference to have defenders who can not only defend, but play the ball, bring it out, run with it. We've missed Agger a lot.

 

 

 

I agree, downturn in fortunes more or less co-incides with his absence. One of a few reasons for our mis-firing.

[Hobbsie]

Carra is still the kingpin of our defence, and watch us struggle on Saturday without him

 

Normally I'd agree but Sami has been more so this season

[Guest Snorky]

The thing is though Kev, just because we've conceded relatively few goals doesn't mean the defence is immune to criticism. I'm not blaming anyone per se, but how many goals have we conceded that were sloppy and avoidable? Ask certain players if they'd have done something differently, and for more than 10 of those goals, I'll venture the answer's yes.

 

The thing is though, if our forwards (Torres exempt) actually knew how to put the ball in the f***in net we could still be challenging now. The defence is not the area of the park that deserves any criticism.

 

As Wayne says, we cannot kill off a game (forwards/midfielders) and we don't create enough (forwards/midfielders).

 

The defence is doing their part regardless of examples during the game, on the whole the defence has been spot on.

[alias75]

Those stats also fail to take into the account the effect defenders can have on the attacking strength of the team. We dont have full backs that can bomb forward with pace and support the attack (except maybe Arbeloa) and at the moment we have 2 centre backs in Hyppia and Carragher that are poor passers.

 

A lot of the attacking play starts from the back and without Agger we have very little quality in those defensive positions. Stopping the opposition is obviously their main job but their also responsible for using the ball they have well and we dont do that.

 

For those that criticise Rafa's "negative" tactics, look how we cope when we have thrown men forward against teams like Havent and Barnsley when we committed men going forward we looked so vulnerable on the counter attack because of the lack of pace we have at the back in 1 v 1 situations they sometimes struggle.

 

If we want to be more offensive and commit more players going forward i think it'll have to be Agger and Skrtel at the back because they have the pace to cope in those 1 v 1 situations. When its tighter and in Europe where its more tactical you can think about playing Carragher or hyppia.

[Guest Snorky]

Carragher isn't above criticism any more than anybody else is.

 

I love the man, but his form has been very patchy this season

 

Carra sets himself such standards that only superman could touch.

 

Even if he is 'struggling' (which I don't agree with), it's because he's been so brilliant over the last few years. Even a drop in his standards is still higher than many defenders will ever touch.

[jimmylibel]

The thing is though, if our forwards (Torres exempt) actually knew how to put the ball in the f***in net we could still be challenging now. The defence is not the area of the park that deserves any criticism.

 

As Wayne says, we cannot kill off a game (forwards/midfielders) and we don't create enough (forwards/midfielders).

 

The defence is doing their part regardless of examples during the game, on the whole the defence has been spot on.

 

It's been worse than previous seasons though Kev. If the defence was as good as it has been under Rafa then we wouldn't be leaking late goals. Yes, the forwards need to do a lot more and that's a huge part of the problem. That doesn't mean that the defence isn't also a (smaller) part of the problem.

[sutty]

Carra sets himself such standards that only superman could touch.

 

Even if he is 'struggling' (which I don't agree with), it's because he's been so brilliant over the last few years. Even a drop in his standards is still higher than many defenders will ever touch.

 

 

I think he has struggled at times Kev

 

It is pretty self evident that he has. He's conceded a shed load of pens for a start.

 

Agree on the standards stuff FWIW

Edited February 18, 2008 by sutty

[fyds]

We have one forward who is a godsend 95% of the time. We have a young forward/winger who has bagloads of potential and has chipped in with a share most new dedicated strikers may struggle to achieve. Two of our midfielders, Stevie and Yossi have chipped in well - two of our strikers are not in the best of form to say the least, the fourth is injured. We need more goals spread around the team. Lucas and Masch have been trying, but we need Finnan, Carra, Sami, Skrtal, Agger (when back) Alonso (when bedded back in) and above all, Pennant and Kewell when played to chip in with more.

One goal per game from anyone of these players would make all the difference between a draw and a win.

[DanielS]

When that Barnsley player scored for their second there is a Liverpool defender just in front of him who could have done more to block the shot - would have been expected to do more by nearly every fan in that ground. You can identify which defender it was because he turns away from the ball and cowers as the shot is taken and the big "2" and "3" on his back is plain for all to see.

 

Every Dad in the ground could proudly point that action out to his kid and say, "That's defending son." Or not.

 

Carragher has had an awful season by his high standards. Retirement from England has brought mediocrity, not a renewed focus.

 

That said, our defensive play is excellent from an organisational standpoint so we are always going to remain difficult to score against if we hold our concentration. As others have rightly pointed out, Carra being s*** this season hasn't caused the problems we are having up front. Not scoring never helps.

Edited February 18, 2008 by DanielS

[Rich Gobey]

Carra isnt the problem, it's more to do with him and Sammi having had no rest in months.

 

They both look knackered, but oddly Sammi is the one who looks like he's got his 2nd wind back before Jamie.

[Guest Snorky]

I think he has struggled at times Kev

 

It is pretty self evident that he has. He's conceded a shed load of pens for a start.

 

Agree on the standards stuff FWIW

 

Yeh 3 pens in 38 games is a wagon innit

[alias75]

It's been worse than previous seasons though Kev. If the defence was as good as it has been under Rafa then we wouldn't be leaking late goals. Yes, the forwards need to do a lot more and that's a huge part of the problem. That doesn't mean that the defence isn't also a (smaller) part of the problem.

 

I think a lot of these late goals have occurred when we've been pushing for a winner and committed too many men going forward, again it comes back to the lack of pace in the back 4 to cope when we throw men forward, and their left 1 v 1. You watch someone like Micah Richards or Toure and they take up some bad positions defensively but they have that raw pace that gets them out of trouble, and when their left 1 v 1 they're not going to get burnt for pace.

 

The goals conceded is good, because defensively we are very strong, but in the modern game defenders need to do more than defend, especially for a club like ours when teams park the bus. In these games your defenders see plenty of the ball and if you have someone like Agger that can carry it through the midfield and make good passes it makes it much harder for the opposition. At the moment we have 3 defenders that just launch it and thats obviously not good for a team looking to build attacks.

 

I think Agger and Skrtel could be a good partnership for those "easy" home games where we see lots of the ball, and i like Arbeloa as a fullback, but we need another attacking fullback.

[Guest Snorky]

When that Barnsley player scored for their second there is a Liverpool defender just in front of him who could have done more to block the shot - would have been expected to do more by nearly every fan in that ground. You can identify which defender it was because he turns away from the ball and cowers as the shot is taken and the big "2" and "3" on his back is plain for all to see.

 

Every Dad in the ground could proudly point that action out to his kind and say, "That's defending son." Or not.

Carragher has had an awful season by his high standards. Retirement from England has brought mediocrity, not a renewed focus.

 

And ofcourse Riise and Alonso put in excellent challenges immediately before didn't they ?

[pipnasty]

I don't think that the facts speak for themselves at all.

 

Rush used to be our first line of defense and Hansen our first line of attack. They are not isolated units as United, Arsenal and Chelsea will currently testify.

 

And if we played with eleven men behind the ball at all times and conceded only a couple of goals, would this be a title winning defense? On its own, yes, but as part of a bigger picture, no.

 

 

Carragher appears to do everything at a stretch this year and doesn't look comfortable.

[Rimbeux]

We neither defend in isolation or attack in isolation, everyone has a responsibility to do their bit at both ends, to work hard to win the ball and to use it constructively. The defence is not isolated from the attack and how it's all is set up does directly influence how we defend and how we attack, the consistent large gaps between our midfield and stikers, how spread out we are, is a consequence of where the defensive line sits. Nothing is isolated, it needs the help of all.

[jimmylibel]

Yeh 3 pens in 38 games is a wagon innit

 

3 too many though.