Rotation

[Bromage]

It occurs to me that after 3 years of pundit comment about the "rotation system", (you know the same forward thinking people who say Directors of Football don’t work, foreign investors are only after the money and oh don’t forget, technology will only damage our traditional game) many on here have now jumped on the same bandwagon and suggested that this is the reason for our poor performances. I'd like to put forward a case for why I think it's the right thing to do but I will openly admit that it isn’t working for us at the moment.

 

Experts will say that we won all those titles & cups with a squad of only 14 players but you only have to look at the physical state of our past heroes, after the constant “patching up” and cortizone injections, to see that even at the slower pace of the game 20-30 years ago the long term damage is too high a price for a young man, whatever the salary.

 

If you take a look at our 1st team squad showing 34 players, excluding those out on loan or without squad numbers, you would anticipate that at least 24 are of sufficient quality to play in the 1st team, with the others available to “low level” introduction where possible. The squad presumably train together and whilst each has their own specific skill, one assumes that they all follow the tactics outlined by the coaching staff and therefore have some indication of what s expected of them. I have to therefore assume therefore that when Lucas is played on the left, Riise is told to push forward rather than stay alongside Sami and Babel is told to stay out wide rather than central, it is part of a well-rehearsed plan on which the WHOLE SQUAD have worked for several days before the game.

 

So my contention is that squad rotation is perfectly acceptable given the demands of the game and in the interests of the players. If a player is considered good enough to pay £20k+ a week then they should surely be expected to have the talent to play where and when the coach demands. Players don’t meet up at games as strangers, they practise together on a daily basis and if Kuyt & Torres or Crouch and Voronin don’t know how to play with each other then isn’t that more a reflection on them rather than the coaching staff?

 

So if there is criticism to be levelled, in my humble opinion it isn’t the obvious target; DO blame the quality of the players, DO blame the tactics (or the players’ lack of ability to execute them) and DO blame the coaches for not making the right team selections. But DON’T blame rotation because that should be the system that helps us to keep players in prime condition for the 60 games or so a season.

[Guest Kaizer]

I agree, there is nothing wrong with rotation as long as you dont rotate too many key players at the same time.

 

There will always be a core of key players in a team, usually around 5-6, for us its Torres, Gerrard, Reina, Mascherano, Alonso and Agger.

 

If we rest too many of these players during the same game we will get problems because we will not have enough leaders on the pitch, players we can count on to bail us out with a consistently good performance during the season and that are able to lift the players around them.

 

Yesterday we only had Alonso in the team out of these core players, I might include Hyypia as well since he has been a mainstay this season because of Aggers injury and a consistently good performer as usual but even so only two of the core players in the team will give you problems if you dont get of to a good start.

 

Our fringe players are not good enough, especially in attack and this is our problem compared to the other top four teams, they are not able to lift us on a bad day if they dont have the core players surrounding them.

 

So no, rotation is not the problem, its the level of the players that gets rotated that is.

 

Yesterday we used too many fringe layers at the same time and that cost us, but the same players should be more than good enough to beat Barnsley, it just did not happen.

[Kahnee]

DON’T blame rotation because that should be the system that helps us to keep players in prime condition for the 60 games or so a season.

 

:applause:

[Kahnee]

Yesterday we used too many fringe layers at the same time and that cost us, but the same players should be more than good enough to beat Barnsley, it just did not happen.

 

So did it cost us or not?

 

And who, apart from Charlie The Clown are you counting as a fringe player? We had a starting XI and a bench (Martin aside) made up of players who could all reasonably call themselves first-teamers

[Stevie H]

So no, rotation is not the problem, its the level of the players that gets rotated that is.

agree. it's a vicious circle. manager wants to employ rotation system 'cos it's been proven to work, hasn't the cash to buy players of a requisite standard, gambles therefore on players who may or may not work out, ends up rotating players who simply aren't good enough, makes poor choices too, ends up looking a c***.

 

we're back to square one really and it's hugely f***ing depressing.

[Kahnee]

agree. it's a vicious circle. manager wants to employ rotation system 'cos it's been proven to work, hasn't the cash to buy players of a requisite standard, gambles therefore on players who may or may not work out, ends up rotating players who simply aren't good enough, makes poor choices too, ends up looking a c***.

 

we're back to square one really and it's hugely f***ing depressing.

 

S'alright for you - you're fecking off. What about those of us left behind?

[Stevie H]

S'alright for you - you're fecking off. What about those of us left behind?

f*** you all.

[Kahnee]

f*** you all.

 

I hope New Zealand is the first to go under when the ice caps melt

[Stevie H]

I hope New Zealand is the first to go under when the ice caps melt

i believe that bradford is top of the list at present.

 

anyway, we digress. think we were saying that ferguson and wenger have proved that rotation as a concept works but that you need players of sufficient quality to come in as replacements? and that our first XI is barely good enough anyway? and that our defensive players are generally better than our attacking ones? and that football is in fact f***ed as a sport, dead as a game and has no soul left ergo we should all get new hobbies?

[Guest Kaizer]

So did it cost us or not?

 

And who, apart from Charlie The Clown are you counting as a fringe player? We had a starting XI and a bench (Martin aside) made up of players who could all reasonably call themselves first-teamers

 

They are first team players yes, but still fringe players in this discussion unless they are in the group of core players.

 

All of them should be able to do a good job, but you should not play too many of them at the same time, without our core players we are on the same level as many of the teams in the PL fighting it out for a European spot, being able to finish from 5th to 12th in the table.

 

Thats the sad fact we need to learn to understand, a lot of our players are decent, but decent is not good enough surrounded only by other decent players.

 

Decent players will get better surrounded by stand out players, but not on their own.

Edited February 17, 2008 by Kaizer

[Kahnee]

i believe that bradford is top of the list at present.

Suits me, I only work there

 

anyway, we digress. think we were saying that ferguson and wenger have proved that rotation as a concept works but that you need players of sufficient quality to come in as replacements? and that our first XI is barely good enough anyway? and that our defensive players are generally better than our attacking ones? and that football is in fact f***ed as a sport, dead as a game and has no soul left ergo we should all get new hobbies?

That would seem to be it

[Kahnee]

They are first team players yes, but still fringe players unless they are in the group of core players.

 

All of them should be able to do a good job, but you should not play too many of them at the same time

But that is the WHOLE point about rotation. You should be able to play any given XI and they will be up to the job

 

a lot of our layers are decent, but decent is not good good enough.

 

Explains the lack of eggs around the place

[Earl Hafler]

:applause:

 

Rafa was rotating in September. He's still doing it - making 5 or 6 changes per game. Different central midfield parings, different strike partnerships, different wide players.

 

Our players should - if the theory works - be fitter than most but they don't look it.

Morale is low

We're playing s*** football.

Babel with 6 league starts, Voronin and Kewell with more

Wigan at home with 2 defensive midfielders and one striker - another example of poor tactics

 

I think Rafa's over rotating and poor selection policy are more responsible for the above than the problems caused by G&H

 

Wenger and Ferguson have not rotated as much in the league and if someone tells me they have better players, i'd argue that the Mancs have a better pool of forwards, Arsenal don't. Look at the improvement in the Adebayor, Flamini, even Hleb and Rosicky are more comfortable within the system and team because they were given a run in the side. Rafa selects Benayoun, Babel and others and they have 2 or 3 games in the side, sometimes being dropped after scoring / playing well.

 

Rafa's policy this season has not encouraged good football or team morale - where is the team ? A few players atarting most games with others back and forth like f***ing yoyos.

 

Arsenal have been without Van Persie for much of the season and yet Adebayor has stepped up. Had he been here, i dare say he would have been rotated with Voronin and Kuyt and all three would be in a similar vein of poor form.

Flamini and Fabregas are an excellent partnership for Arsenal. What's ours ?

 

Too many possibilities, too little cohesion, fluidity and consistency in our team so that it resembles 11 individual players who struggle to perform at their best because of the changes made. My guess is that many of our players are so bamboozled by the tactics and selection they're not enjoying their football.

Edited February 17, 2008 by Big Stuff

[Guest Kaizer]

Read the edited version Kahnee.

[Kahnee]

Read the edited version Kahnee.

 

So that cllears up the third point - what about the first two?

[Earl Hafler]

But that is the WHOLE point about rotation. You should be able to play any given XI and they will be up to the job

Explains the lack of eggs around the place

 

You seriously think that ? Select different 11's week to week and pay good football ?

 

It's not possible or practical. We're dealing with human beings, not stick men on a computer screen.

[Kahnee]

many of our players are so bamboozled by the tactics and selection they're not enjoying their football.

 

I thbink that might be getting to the nub of the problem. Have thought for a while that Rafa over-thinks things

[Kahnee]

You seriously think that ? Select different 11's week to week and pay good football ?

 

It's not possible or practical. We're dealing with human beings, not stick men on a computer screen.

 

But if everyone knows what the roles are, there shouldn't be a problem. I think the issue is more a changing of tactics for every game.

 

You look at Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal (and Everton for that matter) - pretty much the same formation week in week out, allowing for the swapping of players as required.

 

I think Rafa maybe tries to do too much - pick a certain XI AND a particular way of playing per game. If they all knew what was needed week in-week out, rotation would be less of a beating stick

[Stevie H]

You seriously think that ? Select different 11's week to week and pay good football ?

 

It's not possible or practical. We're dealing with human beings, not stick men on a computer screen.

except it is possible. as evidenced by recent 118 and 119 rotations numbers used by the mancs and chelsea in challenging for the title.

Edited February 17, 2008 by Stevie H

[Earl Hafler]

except it is possible. as evidenced by recent 118 and 119 rotations numbers used by the mancs and chelsea in challenging for the title.

 

That's 3 changes per match. Kahnee's talking about different 11's. Rafa's making 6 changes a game.

 

Not the same at all.

[Stevie H]

That's 3 changes per match. Kahnee's talking about different 11's. Rafa's making 6 changes a game.

 

Not the same at all.

it's still not the point. rotation is not the sole, or main, reason for the mess we are in.

[Huyton_Red]

The problem with rotating Liverpools squad is

 

1) We do not have the back up players of sufficient quality to enable us to seamlessly rotate our 5 or 6 top players

2) If you rotate so many players per game and change your system all the time you never get a fluid, attacking team with good movement.

3) The levels of consistency shown by our title 'rivals' dictates that you can not afford the points dropped due to resting torres or gerrard etc for a tough league game if you want to keep up. When rafa won the league with Valencia the amount of points he dropped would have not have won a league over here in any of the last 5 or 6 seasons. Torres away to Portsmouth was a glaring example of what I mean - it was madness

4) Cups are lotterys, you could go out in the first round of then all so resting players for league games in order to theoretically compete in three cups in the second half of the season is daft. The league was meant to be our priority and should be our priority untill we have the squad able to compete for league AND champions league. That means playing your best 11 for all 38 league games injury or sever loss of form permitting. 38 games ffs, are you telling me they cant play 38 games.

 

Liverpool play with no cohesio and no fluidity because there are to many changes game after game after game. Maybe this did work in Spain it will NOT work in England, not with Chelsea, Arsenal and Utd as strong as they currently are.

 

The other teams dont flit from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 to 4-5-1 with strikers up front one week, out wide another, in the hole the next. They do not change their central midfield every week, their wingers and ful backs all the time and especially their centre backs. I bet you when agger, skirtel, carragher and hyppia are fit he will rotate them as well.

 

Yes the other top teams do rotate a couple of players but they more often than not have a pattern of play and a system which incudes their best 7 or 8 players playing nearly every league game using the same system.

 

Rafa's methods do not work, look at the league table for evidence of this, the only decent season we had was when where settled with momo and alonso in the middle and gerrard wide right and the same forwards more or less every game. The more players he gets the worse it gets. If actually wish he only had a squad of 16 or 18 players because we may then see a settled side and a couple of runs like we got in his second season

[Earl Hafler]

it's still not the point. rotation is not the sole, or main, reason for the mess we are in.

 

It's not the sole reason but, on the pitch, it is as much a reason as G&H.

 

Rafa is not rotating players too much because G&H are our owners.

 

It is a reason - a big one - and many people don't like hearing it because the press use it. They've placed it with ' zonal marking ' in a box marked " Reasons to hate the press " because they don't want to face up to the possibility we aren't all that and Rafa isn't the man.

 

Rafa deserves another season. My main doubt is - will it matter ?

 

He needs a top class number 2. Pako leaving is the seasons troubles really started on the pitch

[dorgie]

The more players he gets the worse it gets. If actually wish he only had a squad of 16 or 18 players because we may then see a settled side and a couple of runs like we got in his second season

 

I agree 100% with this sentiment.

[Stevie H]

He needs a top class number 2. Pako leaving is the seasons troubles really started on the pitch

this i agree entirely with.