Rotation, Rotation, Rotation

[Earl Hafler]

1 ) Other teams do it

2 ) Rafa was doing it in September when we were top

3 ) It's not rotation, it's the owners

 

three of the most common answers i see whenever the R word rears it's head.

 

1 ) Other teams do it :

Yes, they do, but not to the extent Rafa does.

Using a marker of 18 out of 24 games played ( 75% ) , we have 5 players that meet that ( actually 4 but assuming Hyypia starts in the next league match / game in hand )

Arsenal = 9

Man Utd = 7

Chelsea have less than us but a far greater number ( 8 ) close to that mark. They also have more strength in depth.

 

Wenger and Fergie do not rotate the midfield and forwards as much as Rafa. They have a settled side that is sometimes tweaked here and there dependant on opposition etc.

Rafa achieved his best position in the league with a settled team with one or two players coming in for certain games. A midfield 4 from Gerrard, Momo, Xabi, Kewell and Luis with Didi getting the odd game.

Now Rafa rotates the wide players and he rotates the centre midfielder partner of Gerrard.

Look at our run of games over the last couple of months - Masch and Xabi constantly rotated to partner Gerrard. Xabi and Masch are different players - How can we play a certain system with the components of that system constantly changing ?

Similarly Torres' " partner " is constantly rotated from Voronin to Kuyt with sometimes Benayoun playing off him ( Benayoun recently getting a rare two consecutive start run in the side )

2 out of 6 players being given regular, consecutive starts. Aswell as those four positions, there is often a change at fullback.

 

It's far from condusive to good football

2 ) Rafa was doing it in September when we were top

 

When players, especially new signings, begin a new season, they are keen to impress and stake their claim for a starting place. If they are still being rotated 5 months later, it's only natural that their performance level drops. If players are being dropped despite scoring / playing well then where's the motivation to improve or retain that level of form ?

Rafa was doing this last season with Crouch - dropping him after scoring and playing well. He also dropped him - our top scorer in the competition - for the CL final. Now this spat has carried on into this season and my reading of it is that Crouch is very popular in the dressing room, especially with our captain and vice-captain. When they see him being benched, sometimes not even making the squad, when a free signing like Voronin gets more starts then i think they must wonder why that is. You won't hear it publicly but i think some of them are confused at Rafa's selection policy.

Babel, an £11m signing with bags of talent has fewer league starts, almost half, than a free signing of limited ability who will not get better.

Kewell continues to get games and yet is clearly past it.

 

3 ) It's not rotation, it's the owners

It's actually both but Rafa has far more control over what happens on the pitch and he's got it incredibly wrong on too many occasions this season. The best way for the players to shove two fingers up to G&H is to play well but how can most of them when they don't know if they're going to play the next game ?

 

There is a malaise in the dressing room and in my opinion the quickest way Rafa can sort it out is to pick a side, stick with it and allow it time to settle into a run of good form.

He has to decide if it's Masch, Xabi or both. If both then surely Gerrard has to be given free license to create and surge forward into the resulting attacks. If both then he can play Benayoun and Babel behind Torres and give them more freedom.

Less grit, more guile.

 

You look at Ronaldo when he arrived at Man Utd and he has blossomed under that system. He was a laughing stock of opposition fans in the first few months but was given the confidence of his manager.

Hleb, Rosicky and Flamini were laughed at a year ago and would probably not get in to our World's Best Midfield but they've been stuck with, have been given time to adapt and the result is a wonderful style of football and a title challenge.

Most of our new signings will start next season with only half a season behind them, given the amount of starts they've received.

 

Rotation is a problem and it's not a bad word just because the media use it.

 

My confidence in Rafa is disappearing but he should be given another season. My own opinion is that in the current climate of poor results and disputes with the owners, he'll be lucky to survive the summer here.

My major question is that, given time and financial backing, will Rafa begin to implement our own style of football and not change it from game to game ? More money and players appears to have given him more possibilties resulting in more problems.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Big Stuff

[Crazy Horse]

conducive

 

Good post mind.

[Earl Hafler]

conducive

Thanks

 

Good post mind.

 

Thanks

[Morse]

Good points well made mate.

[New York Red]

It makes me dizzy. And sometimes nauseous.

[Shanklyanfield]

good points and I agree with most of it but...... it's Rafa's management style, what he believes in and reading the few books about rafa I don't think he will change.

 

so the big question for me is: will we win the title with the constant changing of players, formations and tactics and my own personal opinion is that we won't.

[Guest Kaizer]

Our biggest problem when it comes to rotation is that we rotate too many s**** players into the team, if we could rotate them out a lot more we would be fine.

[josemisuncle]

The problems are not rotation per se, but:

1. Normally reliable players are playing way below their level (e.g. Carra)
   
2. Distribution out of defence has been dire since Agger was injured. We lose the ball almost immediately and hence are under pressure more.
   
3. We only have one decent striker
   
4. The squad itself is not strong enough to support rotation
   
5. By playing SG in the middle we are not getting the best out of the team. We sure are getting the best out of him though.
   

[Logic]

Rotation in itself isn't a problem. It's how we rotate.

 

Sometimes it seems like Rafa has decided before the season starts who will play what games. And from there it doesn't matter if a player is playing well (Crouch at times) or bad (Kuyt lately). There's no incentive to actually raise your game that extra 1-5% because you know that no matter how you play you will get your 25-30 games a season if you are a squad player.

 

That combined with having no set way of playing causes our team to play like strangers. People have been saying that Rafa is a great tactical manager and I'd sort of agree with that. He has a plan B, C, D, E and so forth. But to me it seems like he hasn't got any real plan A if you know what I mean.

 

So IMO plan B-Z combined with a rotation system not based on performance but rather a predetermined match load will cause us problems.

[josemisuncle]

Rotation in itself isn't a problem. It's how we rotate.

 

Sometimes it seems like Rafa has decided before the season starts who will play what games. And from there it doesn't matter if a player is playing well (Crouch at times) or bad (Kuyt lately). There's no incentive to actually raise your game that extra 1-5% because you know that no matter how you play you will get your 25-30 games a season if you are a squad player.

 

That combined with having no set way of playing causes our team to play like strangers. People have been saying that Rafa is a great tactical manager and I'd sort of agree with that. He has a plan B, C, D, E and so forth. But to me it seems like he hasn't got any real plan A if you know what I mean.

 

So IMO plan B-Z combined with a rotation system not based on performance but rather a predetermined match load will cause us problems.

I don't quite agree, but I see where you are coming from. He picks the team based on the oppostion without taking form into account. The players and the tactics seem to change for each oppostion. like you say I think it's difficult for the players to keep up.

[Earl Hafler]

Rotation in itself isn't a problem. It's how we rotate.

 

 

It's still the same problem. Rafa's personal rotation policy isn't working.

 

From then on you've basically agreed with me.

[Red]

I don't quite agree, but I see where you are coming from. He picks the team based on the oppostion without taking form into account. The players and the tactics seem to change for each oppostion. like you say I think it's difficult for the players to keep up.

 

 

Proverbial "nail on head".

[Magic8Ball]

The problems are not rotation per se, but:

1. Normally reliable players are playing way below their level (e.g. Carra)
   
2. Distribution out of defence has been dire since Agger was injured. We lose the ball almost immediately and hence are under pressure more.
   
3. We only have one decent striker
   
4. The squad itself is not strong enough to support rotation
   
5. By playing SG in the middle we are not getting the best out of the team. We sure are getting the best out of him though.
   

 

Rotation in itself isn't a problem. It's how we rotate.

 

Sometimes it seems like Rafa has decided before the season starts who will play what games. And from there it doesn't matter if a player is playing well (Crouch at times) or bad (Kuyt lately). There's no incentive to actually raise your game that extra 1-5% because you know that no matter how you play you will get your 25-30 games a season if you are a squad player.

 

That combined with having no set way of playing causes our team to play like strangers. People have been saying that Rafa is a great tactical manager and I'd sort of agree with that. He has a plan B, C, D, E and so forth. But to me it seems like he hasn't got any real plan A if you know what I mean.

 

So IMO plan B-Z combined with a rotation system not based on performance but rather a predetermined match load will cause us problems.

 

rotation isn't a problem, it's the players. they're just not good enough.

[Logic]

rotation isn't a problem, it's the players. they're just not good enough.

We easily have the players to be a top 4 side. We shouldn't be in the group fighting for a UEFA cup place.

 

Or do you believe we have a squad similar in strength to the teams we are now fighting with? How many players would you take from ManCity, AV, Everton, Blackburn or Portsmouth? How many players from us would they take?

 

We simply shouldn't be in the place we now are in the league. Not with the players we have.

[Earl Hafler]

rotation isn't a problem, it's the players. they're just not good enough.

 

So Everton, Villa and City have better players than we do ?

[Benzo-13]

We just don't have the players.

 

A first XI should've been structured before the rotation came in - at least have that for the fall back option.

 

Rafa's team at Valencia mostly picked itself apart from some rotations - Carboni/Aurelio, Angulo/Vicente/Xisco, Albelda/Baraja/Sissoko, Carew/Mista/Sanchez/Salva/Aimar but the first eleven structure was always there.

 

We've a team being rebuilt every season having rotation done to it. Nobody really knows their relationship within roles, especially on the flanks and upfront, when knowing when to over-lap/attack/timing of runs is a key element.

It's just over-complicating matters that should be simple.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Benzo-13

[Gunga Din]

1 ) Other teams do it

2 ) Rafa was doing it in September when we were top

3 ) It's not rotation, it's the owners

 

three of the most common answers i see whenever the R word rears it's head.

 

1 ) Other teams do it :

Yes, they do, but not to the extent Rafa does.

Using a marker of 18 out of 24 games played ( 75% ) , we have 5 players that meet that ( actually 4 but assuming Hyypia starts in the next league match / game in hand )

Arsenal = 9

Man Utd = 7

Chelsea have less than us but a far greater number ( 8 ) close to that mark. They also have more strength in depth.

 

Wenger and Fergie do not rotate the midfield and forwards as much as Rafa. They have a settled side that is sometimes tweaked here and there dependant on opposition etc.

Rafa achieved his best position in the league with a settled team with one or two players coming in for certain games. A midfield 4 from Gerrard, Momo, Xabi, Kewell and Luis with Didi getting the odd game.

Now Rafa rotates the wide players and he rotates the centre midfielder partner of Gerrard.

Look at our run of games over the last couple of months - Masch and Xabi constantly rotated to partner Gerrard. Xabi and Masch are different players - How can we play a certain system with the components of that system constantly changing ?

Similarly Torres' " partner " is constantly rotated from Voronin to Kuyt with sometimes Benayoun playing off him ( Benayoun recently getting a rare two consecutive start run in the side )

2 out of 6 players being given regular, consecutive starts. Aswell as those four positions, there is often a change at fullback.

 

It's far from condusive to good football

2 ) Rafa was doing it in September when we were top

 

When players, especially new signings, begin a new season, they are keen to impress and stake their claim for a starting place. If they are still being rotated 5 months later, it's only natural that their performance level drops. If players are being dropped despite scoring / playing well then where's the motivation to improve or retain that level of form ?

Rafa was doing this last season with Crouch - dropping him after scoring and playing well. He also dropped him - our top scorer in the competition - for the CL final. Now this spat has carried on into this season and my reading of it is that Crouch is very popular in the dressing room, especially with our captain and vice-captain. When they see him being benched, sometimes not even making the squad, when a free signing like Voronin gets more starts then i think they must wonder why that is. You won't hear it publicly but i think some of them are confused at Rafa's selection policy.

Babel, an £11m signing with bags of talent has fewer league starts, almost half, than a free signing of limited ability who will not get better.

Kewell continues to get games and yet is clearly past it.

 

3 ) It's not rotation, it's the owners

It's actually both but Rafa has far more control over what happens on the pitch and he's got it incredibly wrong on too many occasions this season. The best way for the players to shove two fingers up to G&H is to play well but how can most of them when they don't know if they're going to play the next game ?

 

There is a malaise in the dressing room and in my opinion the quickest way Rafa can sort it out is to pick a side, stick with it and allow it time to settle into a run of good form.

He has to decide if it's Masch, Xabi or both. If both then surely Gerrard has to be given free license to create and surge forward into the resulting attacks. If both then he can play Benayoun and Babel behind Torres and give them more freedom.

Less grit, more guile.

 

You look at Ronaldo when he arrived at Man Utd and he has blossomed under that system. He was a laughing stock of opposition fans in the first few months but was given the confidence of his manager.

Hleb, Rosicky and Flamini were laughed at a year ago and would probably not get in to our World's Best Midfield but they've been stuck with, have been given time to adapt and the result is a wonderful style of football and a title challenge.

Most of our new signings will start next season with only half a season behind them, given the amount of starts they've received.

 

Rotation is a problem and it's not a bad word just because the media use it.

 

My confidence in Rafa is disappearing but he should be given another season. My own opinion is that in the current climate of poor results and disputes with the owners, he'll be lucky to survive the summer here.

My major question is that, given time and financial backing, will Rafa begin to implement our own style of football and not change it from game to game ? More money and players appears to have given him more possibilties resulting in more problems.

 

 

agree with all of that

[Cobs]

Just to add a bit of stats to the mix

 

We've played 37 games this season

 

Rafa's made 194 changes (some will no doubt have been caused by injuries)

 

that's an average of 5.39 changes per game

[Gunga Din]

Just to add a bit of stats to the mix

 

We've played 37 games this season

 

Rafa's made 194 changes (some will no doubt have been caused by injuries)

 

that's an average of 5.39 changes per game

 

 

and people wonder why we havent been playing as a team?

[Rimbeux]

We've got previous. I do agree with the premise that players get used to each other, however I think the root is that the players rotated in and out are not good enough. There are untouchables, clearly, there are just not enough of them. It's been average player swapped with average player. Whatever the potential of Babel, he is currently an average player, with a lot to learn, who is yet to put in a convincing consistent performance over the course of even a match and has shown most benefit to the side as a sub. Derek Kuyt has been given plenty of games and his form is still poor.

 

There are three positions in the front four that no player has made his own, despite the opportunity. The performances just have not stood up from Kewell, Yossi, Pennant, Babel, Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch, they simply have not, they are not consistent performers and have not deserved to keep the shirt on any other basis than they are not one of the others. There is an argument for saying they may not have been given full opportunity, but there are those like Masch and Arbeloa (before his early season injury) who have made themselves fixtures through performances.

 

It's clearly not just arbitrary, and if the players perform, they become untouchable, but the bottom line is they are not up to it. Nothing I have seen in Babel, Yossi or Crouch (the three I hear most shouts for), says they are even close to being a first name down for any other reason than they are not Kewell, Pennant, Derek or Voronin.

[Guest DanTheDaggerman]

Just to add a bit of stats to the mix

 

We've played 37 games this season

 

Rafa's made 194 changes (some will no doubt have been caused by injuries)

 

that's an average of 5.39 changes per game

That's slightly misleading because that doesn't take into account weakened teams being put out against lower league opposition in the Cups. Might be good to see the changes split by League/CL/FAC/LC...

[Cobs]

It's clearly not just arbitrary, and if the players perform, they become untouchable, but the bottom line is they are not up to it. Nothing I have seen in Babel, Yossi or Crouch (the three I hear most shouts for), says they are even close to being a first name down for any other reason than they are not Kewell, Pennant, Derek or Voronin.

 

 

Crouch - started 2 games in a row twice this season

Benayoun - 2 runs of starting 3 games in a row, 3 runs of starting 2 games in a row

Babel - 6 starts all season, non consecutive

 

 

bit of a chicken and egg situation - maybe they arent good enough but i'm not sure how anyone is going to play themselves into top form to make themselves an untouchable when their starts in the team are so sporadic.

[Cobs]

That's slightly misleading because that doesn't take into account weakened teams being put out against lower league opposition in the Cups. Might be good to see the changes split by League/CL/FAC/LC...

 

The season doesn't flow evenly though does it? there are League matches, League cup games, CL games, FA Cup games International breaks, injuries - the manager, any manager is going to utilise his squad

 

If you ignore all cup games and just look at the League on it's own there have been 76 changes in 23 games = 3.45 changes per game, the same side has been kept twice (first two games of the season), then the Man U/Portsmouth game.

 

But it's easily argued that's misleading because there have been some CL/LC/FAC games in between them

[Flasher]

I personally don't mind rotation, but the way Rafa does it doesn't work.

 

For me, there is no motivation for a player to play well, as he will be dropped for the next game anyway due to some plan Rafa has for that particular opposition.

 

The big difference for me:

Wenger, Fergie and Grant will rotate too, but they will not rotate someone in great form, and they will always pick a team based on how they want to play, not how the opposition want to play (though I'm sure there is the odd exception).

 

If I was playing in this system, I wouldn't be happy at all. I'm sure most of our players aren't either.

 

When Chelsea, Arsenal or Man Utd have a big game and all the players are fit, even we know who will be playing for them. The same can not be said about Liverpool

Edited February 1, 2008 by Flasher

[Rimbeux]

Crouch - started 2 games in a row twice this season

Benayoun - 2 runs of starting 3 games in a row, 3 runs of starting 2 games in a row

Babel - 6 starts all season, non consecutive

bit of a chicken and egg situation - maybe they arent good enough but i'm not sure how anyone is going to play themselves into top form to make themselves an untouchable when their starts in the team are so sporadic.

 

Pennant played something like the first dozen games or something similar, he was doing ok, but was 'no more than he should have been' so to speak. It's not a maybe, they are not good enough, because we know, we honestly know. No doubt it would help Crouch keep his level of decent footballer up if he played every week, but we know that level is not good enough, same as Kuyt is not good enough as is shown in near every one of his regular starts.

 

It's not chicken and egg in anything other than some theory that there is great player being held back somewhere in the ranks. The best players, the ones who are good enough, play virtually every game, and the debate about rotating the ones who are not good enough is a distraction to the reality of how good they actually are.