All of the moaning sods on this forum

[San Diego Red]

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N...071105-0924.htm

When Rafa Benitez agreed to take the Liverpool manager's job in the summer of 2004 he knew full well that if he wasn't a success the ghosts of Anfield's glorious past would soon come back to haunt him.

 

It is what makes managing Liverpool so unique - you will always be judged by the wonderful deeds of Messrs Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish.

 

And so it has proved for Benitez with his every decision being put through the "What would Shankly have done?" test.

 

This, despite the fact that what Shankly would have done is largely irrelevant given the fact that when he last managed Liverpool the players had only just stopped being paid in pounds, shillings and pence, and the only funny sounding accent at Melwood belonged to Kevin Keegan, a Yorkshireman.

 

Nevertheless, Benitez was prepared to accept the pressure of following in the footsteps of four of the greatest managers ever to ply their trade in English football and he was always aware that the standards they set would be the ones against which he would be judged.

 

But, during the past week, he has been subjected to the kind of comparisons which are so unfair they border on the ridiculous.

 

After an admittedly wonderful performance by Arsenal at Anfield several commentators - and even some Liverpool fans - have compared Benitez's Liverpool unfavourably with Arsene Wenger's side.

 

In one small sense, such a comparison is relevant.

 

After all, both clubs compete in the same competitions and are contesting the same prizes.

 

But when you take into account that Wenger's is a work in progress which has been over a decade in the making, and Benitez has only been in situ at Anfield for a little over three years, you soon realise how tenuous such comparisons are.

 

And when it is pointed out that Cesc Fabregas has been at Arsenal for two years longer than Benitez has been at Liverpool you soon realise that the two projects are at completely different stages.

 

What we saw from Arsenal on Sunday was the product of a revolution which began in 1996.

 

Back then, Wenger produced a vision which has been backed by the Arsenal board pretty much every step of the way.

 

He asked for a total revamp of the youth set-up with the best youngsters from around the world being recruited - he got it.

 

He asked for the Gunners training ground to be totally revamped with the finest available technology embraced - he got it.

 

He asked the board to support him in the transfer market and back his judgement when it came to buying and selling players - he got it.

 

But, most importantly, he has been given the time and breathing space to create the side which illuminated Anfield at the weekend.

 

In the past three seasons, Arsenal have won just one major trophy - an ill-deserved triumph over Manchester United in the FA Cup - and, at times, have struggled to qualify for the Champions League.

 

And, in the past two seasons, Benitez's Liverpool have finished above Wenger's Arsenal in the Premiership table.

 

During this lean spell all Wenger's best work was being done at youth and reserve level with outstanding youngsters being brought in and blended together.

 

The French manager was able to do all this safe in the knowledge that his efforts would not be undermined by impatience at boardroom level.

Benitez, on the other hand, is only just taking his first steps along a similar road.

 

A batch of top class teenagers - the likes of Geraldo Bruna, Dani Pacheco, Andras Simon and Mikel San Jose - have been signed but they are still at youth team level and will not be ready to make a first team impression for quite some time.

 

If Benitez is afforded the same kind of patience as his counterpart at Arsenal then in a few years time comparisons between the pair will become much more relevant.

 

Only time will tell if Benitez can match Wenger - but the very least he deserves is to be given that time.

[Snookie]

Don't be introducing some sense or perspective into the discussion

[The walters step over]

To be honest, I've never seen anyone on here comparing Benitezs' decisions with those of Shankly or Dalglish or Fagan so I would say that's by the by.

 

I agree that some of the criticism of Rafa is OTT and he has my vote of confidence every day of the week - but this is an internet forum and as such if people feel that there's something happening at our club that's wrong then they should be able to post anything they like.

 

There seems to be a growing movement on here that decrees that if anybody says anything slightly negative about Rafa's decisions or a players ability is not a true fan and should be shouted down.Like I say, I am one of the optomistic ones and I truly don't think we're THAT far away from where we want to be but people should be able to voice their concerns about the team as they feel fit without the sarcastic one liners that inevitably follow.

 

Let's be honest, even if any of the players/staff do read these forums it isn't going to make the slightest difference in their performances.

[Ronnie Whelan]

Perhaps no direct comparison, but those 4 managers are what created the Liverpool legacy and what we measure each manager by, i.e. how succesful they have been.

[The walters step over]

Perhaps no direct comparison, but those 4 managers are what created the Liverpool legacy and what we measure each manager by, i.e. how succesful they have been.

 

But that happens at every successful club and will be forever more - by any sane standards 2 major trophies in 3 seasons (as well as two other finals) is incredibly succesful however you've got to be honest enough to realise that it's not always the best team that wins the cups and that the league is a much better guide to the strength of a team - and it is hard to disagree with anyone that says that there hasn't been that much improvement between Benitez and Houllier in that respect.

[Eskimo]

The way I see it we either tread water from here till kingdom come or, as is my opinion, we stick with what we've got.

 

Rafa is trying to re-build the club from the bottom up and as the article points out this take time, something the "me want now" crowd fail to appreciate. Getting rid of Rafa would achieve nowt positive in my book, in fact the opposite. I could see a mass exodus occurring, players like Pepe, Xabi, Torres and co thinking uh-oh I only came here because I believed in the manager and the longterm vision he had for the club. I could also see a fair few of the gems he's signed for the youth/reserve teams wanting out, that could set us back 3-4 years.

 

A new manager would have his own vision for the club, players he would like to bring in/get rid and so the whole re-building process starts again and we tread water till he gets the boot....

[Benzo-13]

The way I see it we either tread water from here till kingdom come or, as is my opinion, we stick with what we've got.

 

Rafa is trying to re-build the club from the bottom up and as the article points out this take time, something the "me want now" crowd fail to appreciate. Getting rid of Rafa would achieve nowt positive in my book, in fact the opposite. I could see a mass exodus occurring, players like Pepe, Xabi, Torres and co thinking uh-oh I only came here because I believed in the manager and the longterm vision he had for the club. I could also see a fair few of the gems he's signed for the youth/reserve teams wanting out, that could set us back 3-4 years.

 

A new manager would have his own vision for the club, players he would like to bring in/get rid and so the whole re-building process starts again and we tread water till he gets the boot....

 

Exactly my point when I talk to other teams fans about our situation..

 

We're not flippin Newcastle/Spurs.

 

We've got to give Rafa the time needed. There's now way we'd miss out on the top 4 these days and the football as bad as it's been is like Brazil in comparison to GH's downward spiral drivel in 03/04.

 

If we got rid of him it'd set us back near a decade and we'd be staring up at the Mancs 20+ titles.

[Mascherano]

The way I see it we either tread water from here till kingdom come or, as is my opinion, we stick with what we've got.

 

Rafa is trying to re-build the club from the bottom up and as the article points out this take time, something the "me want now" crowd fail to appreciate. Getting rid of Rafa would achieve nowt positive in my book, in fact the opposite. I could see a mass exodus occurring, players like Pepe, Xabi, Torres and co thinking uh-oh I only came here because I believed in the manager and the longterm vision he had for the club. I could also see a fair few of the gems he's signed for the youth/reserve teams wanting out, that could set us back 3-4 years.

 

A new manager would have his own vision for the club, players he would like to bring in/get rid and so the whole re-building process starts again and we tread water till he gets the boot....

 

I don't see why a mass exodus would necessarily follow from a new manager coming in. I don't think that they are suffering LFC for rafa's sake. They might be delighted with say, Jose Mourinho?

 

Why would the gems he has signed want out? Younger players could, for example, have more of a chance at game time under a different manager?

 

I agree that a new manager would have his own vision for the club. Why would you think that the man who starts the rebuilding job has to be the one that finishes it? It might improve the development of the club to have had Rafa take us to the stage we are at and allow a fresh approach to mould the base that Rafa has developed into something special.

[Marvin]

Of course people have every right to express their concerns with the team and the manager. However it does boil down to whether you believe that Rafa is the right man to take the team forward over the next few years or not. It seems to me though that if you say that the present run of poor performances are down to bad decisions by the manager (rotation/poor team selection etc) then the logical extension of that is that Rafa is a clueless idiot and we should get rid now. I cannot accept that that can be the case given all that he has achieved. I prefer to believe that this is simply a bad run due to loss of confidence and injuries. If I don't believe that then it means that we have to go back to square one with all that entails.

[fabfive]

As long as the owners are discussing long term plans with Rafa he's going to be here.

 

There isn't a "perfect" manager around. Yet, people want perfection out of 11 individuals on the pitch and the manager.

 

Rafa is slowly intergrating his style with the players. He couldn't just jump in and change things with the holdovers he had. We--He--- didn't have 200 mil off of Moores to revamp the side. So it will take Rafa until his 4th or 5th year before he's cleaned out the closet and brought in who he wants to play his style of footy.

 

Until then we haven't seen the real Rafa and we haven't seen the real football Rafa will have us play.

[Guest DandyW]

I Don't know how long you have followed football but I can tell you that Mr. Wenger already have won the PL with to different Arsenal teams. Maybe that helped him through the not to rough times?

And as far as I know Rafa haven't won PL? And he has never in his career proved that he knows how to build his own team. What he has proved is that he is very good to get the best out of teams build by someone else. And I don't think Liverpool is the club to try out things for a un-experienced manager. When Rafa wasn't able to build on his two first years in Liverpool I can't see why he will come back. And I do really believe it is time to go different ways. But that's just me, I can see why other thinks otherwise. But that is not because Rafa has proved anything.

Edited November 5, 2007 by DandyW

[Gunga Din]

So it will take Rafa until his 4th or 5th year before he's cleaned out the closet and brought in who he wants to play his style of footy.

 

Until then we haven't seen the real Rafa and we haven't seen the real football Rafa will have us play.

 

he is in his 4th year now

[Marvin]

he is in his 4th year now

 

 

 

It took Fergie longer than four years to win the league and it took him a decade to win the European Cup. You have to judge Rafa not by the last few games but by the overall progress we have made since Houllier. Can you honestly think of a better manager than Rafa that would be available?

[Rimbeux]

It took Fergie longer than four years to win the league and it took him a decade to win the European Cup. You have to judge Rafa not by the last few games but by the overall progress we have made since Houllier. Can you honestly think of a better manager than Rafa that would be available?

 

 

And Mourinho did it in his first season, Wenger in his first full season, so what? Should we have kept on Gerard on that basis? Comparisons are whatever you want to make of them.

 

I think it's fair to say that we are the manager's team, squad and vision by now, good, bad and indifferent.

[Marvin]

And Mourinho did it in his first season, Wenger in his first full season, so what? Should we have kept on Gerard on that basis? Comparisons are whatever you want to make of them.

 

I think it's fair to say that we are the manager's team, squad and vision by now, good, bad and indifferent.

 

 

The point was that the most successful manager in the league took a good few years to achieve success. As I said earlier it boils down to belief in the abilities of the manager. If you believe he has the ability then you have to give him time. Gerard was given time and his last two seasons showed it was not going to happen. Rafa has not been given that time yet.

[mooks]

I think it's fair to say that we are the manager's team, squad and vision by now, good, bad and indifferent.

Disagree. I doubt whether Rafa would have bought Gerrard much less made him captain. But Gerrard's presence in the team and status at the club is just a reality he has had to deal with.

 

The other point being made, of course, is Rafa has established a long-term youth policy the results of which will not be apparent for several years. Of course he has to do the business with the first team in the meantime (and I would say there is no question he has) but the full glory of Rafa's Liverpool won't be apparent just yet.

[koppper]

I may not understand a few of Rafa's decisions (what do I know anyway) but the thing I like is that he does seem to quickly act on his mistakes with respect to players, so I trust him that this applies to his tactics and strategy as well. Rafa is one of our main assets, and will be for many years to come.

[growler]

I don't understand the issues here. I didn't expect us to win the title this season. true I didn't expect arsenal to be top either, but thats not the point. The point is, I expected us to challenge, but not to win it.

 

As for Wenger, people forget what he inherited.

 

Fungus took 5 years to win the title, but he actually planted the seeds for the beckham/giggs/neville era when he started. Rafa took 1 year to win the CL, 2 to win an FA cup, and 3 to reach another CL final whilst planting seeds.

 

For this season, happy to continue to improve the squad, improve the style of play and get within touching distance of the top, hopefully blooding some youngsters along the way and gear up for a full title assault.

 

however, if we fall out of Europe, I expect us to move much faster in the league.

[Guest prophet]

While a lot have b een said of Rafa being the man, sometimes reality has to come in.

 

How much time would you give Rafa? 5, 8, 10 years?

[mooks]

While a lot have b een said of Rafa being the man, sometimes reality has to come in.

 

How much time would you give Rafa? 5, 8, 10 years?

Rafa signed a four year contract extension in 2006 so right now he has this season and the next two.

 

I personally would offer him a 5 year contract next summer.

[Guz]

Disagree. I doubt whether Rafa would have bought Gerrard much less made him captain. But Gerrard's presence in the team and status at the club is just a reality he has had to deal with

 

Why do you doubt? For my money he trusts Gerrard more than any player in the squad as evident by the number of positions he plays to make up for the lack of quality elsewhere (I prefer to go with this theory than Gerrard not being good enough to hold down a position). Rafa has had two opportunities to sell him, yet he hasn't. If Gerrard is truly just an invonvenience that the current and every future manager has to deal with then there is something very rotten going on.

 

he is in his 4th year now

 

And we have made the best start in the league under his tenure and are still involved in all the competitions we've entered so far.

 

We are playing s***e granted but theres f*** loads of footy to be played this season, take a chill pill people.

[Siang]

Why do you doubt? For my money he trusts Gerrard more than any player in the squad as evident by the number of positions he plays to make up for the lack of quality elsewhere (I prefer to go with this theory than Gerrard not being good enough to hold down a position). Rafa has had two opportunities to sell him, yet he hasn't. If Gerrard is truly just an invonvenience that the current and every future manager has to deal with then there is something very rotten going on.

And we have made the best start in the league under his tenure and are still involved in all the competitions we've entered so far.

 

We are playing s***e granted but theres f*** loads of footy to be played this season, take a chill pill people.

 

this is nothing yet, Guz...

 

this place will go t*ts up tonite if we dont get a win against Besiktas!!!

[mooks]

Why do you doubt? For my money he trusts Gerrard more than any player in the squad as evident by the number of positions he plays to make up for the lack of quality elsewhere (I prefer to go with this theory than Gerrard not being good enough to hold down a position). Rafa has had two opportunities to sell him, yet he hasn't. If Gerrard is truly just an invonvenience that the current and every future manager has to deal with then there is something very rotten going on.

First off, I have never said Gerrard is an "inconvenience". He's practically the best player in the world when he's on form, for crying out loud. What I said is I don't think he is the player Rafa would have chosen to build his team around or would have been his first choice as captain.

 

That's my opinion, but it's one many people share.

[Rimbeux]

The point was that the most successful manager in the league took a good few years to achieve success. As I said earlier it boils down to belief in the abilities of the manager. If you believe he has the ability then you have to give him time. Gerard was given time and his last two seasons showed it was not going to happen. Rafa has not been given that time yet.

 

I actually agree with a long term view, and it proves to be the best way to build dynastic success evidently. What I am saying is there is none such as a golden rule, no two circumstances are the same. Every situation has it's own story where not everything was going for the manager and not everything going against. You are wholly right to say it's about believing in a manager and giving him the time to deliver. You can however with complete integrity ask questions along the way.

 

You throw up Ferguson, someone could say he walked into a club with a massive drink culture and had to remove several if not quite all of the main players, literally start again and was a couple of results away from the edge, but he bought well, learnt from his mistakes and he delivered and survived into the Sky money era. Would he have had such time in these days of high financial stakes and CL money? It's a debate

 

People can throw up Wenger and Mourinho as guys who got success very quickly, some will say in one case it's all down to money and wont much credit a man being able to handle all the egos above and below him, integrate all the new players and suss a new league straight away with a remarkable ability to gather points and get down to the final game or two of near everything they went in for. Not all for him, not all against him, he was the critical diffrence.

 

They will claim Wenger inherited a great defence, fair enough, but was it not the same one that was claimed to be past it's best, had last one the league 6 seasons before and was on the way out, that to a man later said the manager put years on their careers with his methods that they initially scoffed at. Was it also not a squad riddled with off-field problems, serious personal problems with some of the main players. Not all for him, not all against him, he was the difference.

 

 

 

 

Disagree. I doubt whether Rafa would have bought Gerrard much less made him captain. But Gerrard's presence in the team and status at the club is just a reality he has had to deal with.

 

The other point being made, of course, is Rafa has established a long-term youth policy the results of which will not be apparent for several years. Of course he has to do the business with the first team in the meantime (and I would say there is no question he has) but the full glory of Rafa's Liverpool won't be apparent just yet.

 

 

I agree that Gerrard is not a Benitez archetype player, but to be honest he's had ample chance to let him go and actually refused his offer to stand down from the captaincy. There are also far harder players to handle around the game, and he remaiins the manager's best performer.

 

Of course there is long term vision, but there is also medium term reality, for example this team's time is now and the next two or three seasons after which there will be some inevitable transition and changing of roles for some players, so you'd expect them to be somewhere near the peak of what they can achieve.

[Guz]

First off, I have never said Gerrard is an "inconvenience". He's practically the best player in the world when he's on form, for crying out loud. What I said is I don't think he is the player Rafa would have chosen to build his team around or would have been his first choice as captain.

 

That's my opinion, but it's one many people share.

 

I'm not downing your opinion, just trying to work out the reasoning behind it. I personally dont see how Gerrard not being a player Rafa bought is reason to dispute that "we are the manager's team, squad and vision by now". Maybe the likes of Riise or the deadwood that has been shifted through the door but not his skipper and someone he could've sold on two different occasions and received a huge amount of money for. IMO anyway.