Kuyt

[Cooger]

You have got to love this guy haven’t you? No one works harder on a football field for us than Dirk. He shows loads of passion, hassles the opposition with his physical approach and must be horrible to play against for that reason. He seems to really love the club and he seems very professional accepting the rotation policy.

 

However much as I can’t help but like Dirk I really think he’s lacking quality. He plays a vital position for us more often than not as the ‘supporting striker’, ‘in the hole’ or the most fashionable phrase for that position at the moment ‘between the lines’. If you look at the players who have performed this role for us over the years they have been top draw players in Keegan, Dalglish and Beardsley to name a few. In the Premiership the best teams have had top quality player in this vital position: Man U – Cantona or Sheringham, Arsenal – Bergkamp. All these players mentioned had great vision and were special at creating chances and being match winners.

 

Now maybe I am being harsh but I don’t think Dirk is very creative, he doesn’t have the best first touch around and I’m struggling to see what makes him ‘special’. To me he’s all about work rate, energy and passion, rather than quality.

 

I think if our club wants to progress in the long term we need to find a special player to go along side Fernando, one who works hard but who can have a major influence on games.

[Leo No.8]

He's looked really good 'with Fernando' himself though. It's when he plays with Voronin he doesn't look the same player.

 

Kuyt is a hard working foil who brings the best out of a star partner like Torres, or he's a great penalty box striker and finisher - possibly both at his best. He won the European Golden Boot playing as an out and out striker.

 

What he isn't is a link forward because he's not blessed with great flair, nor can he ever play with Voronin as they make an absolutely horrible partnership. He's being very poorly employed by Rafa in my view.

 

You rarely even see him in a position to score he's so deep most of the time, it's a complete waste of what he does well.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Leo No.8

[Cooger]

I agree about the Voronin partnership to me they both seem to act as the supporting strikers so when played together at times we rarely have anyone in the box. Kuyt's strengths as you say are in the box, but we rarely see him in that position, he's outside it where he's not going to offer much threat.

 

I think he looks good alongside Torres, but I think lots of strikers would look good alongside Fernando.

[Falconhoof]

Not the first name I come to when looking for players we can improve upon.

Our attacking players as a whole need overhaul but i'd be looking to offload one or two others before Kuyt. It looks like Crouch will be gone in January so you'd like to think cash won't be a problem. We need another goalscorer as we currently have 3 players in Crouch, Voronin and Kuyt who provide support to a striker but aren't able to unlock a defence or poach enough goals.

Should have been done in the summer.

[Cooger]

Not the first name I come to when looking for players we can improve upon.

 

I think he's a limited player.

 

He's not going to beat defenders for pace therefore he offers no threat on the counter attack or for through balls or over the top of defenses. He's always seen with his back to goal and that is exactly what you want a front player to be doing if you're a defender.

 

Torres can play with his back to goal, holding up the ball and linking as well facing it looking to run at teams or get on the end of through balls.

 

If Kuyt isn't going to create much, isn't getting in the box much, it makes you wonder what he's offering at times other than hard work.

 

I'd say Sissoko is a limited player because he lacks the basics and is best against top teams hassling their best players time and space. Riise is a limited player because he's not good with the ball and constantly 'hoofs' it up the field from left back, not helping the team keep possession. When used in left midfield he can't cross well (even the one in the Champs League final took two attempts), can't beat a player and offers little going forward other than his shot (where he got one league goal last season).

 

For me these limited players who are one dimensional are the ones we should be looking to upgrade.

[smicer07]

I remember when scoring the winning goal in the Derby made you an instant legend. Nowadays people just moan

[Cooger]

I remember when scoring the winning goal in the Derby made you an instant legend. Nowadays people just moan

 

I don't think this is a moan, I'm just being honest.

 

I have been consistant in my views on Kuyt and would change because of scoring the winning goal in a game.

 

Are we not allowed to scrutunise our player now without getting accused of moaning?

 

As long as it is constructive I don't see the problem.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Hydie

[Swagger]

Kuyt is a hard working foil who brings the best out of a star partner like Torres, or he's a great penalty box striker and finisher - possibly both at his best. He won the European Golden Boot playing as an out and out striker.

 

What he isn't is a link forward because he's not blessed with great flair, nor can he ever play with Voronin as they make an absolutely horrible partnership. He's being very poorly employed by Rafa in my view.

 

Agreed. People often criticise him for sitting deep working hard in midfield rather than staying around the opposition's box, but to be fair thats probably the instructions he receives from Rafa.

[Cooger]

Agreed. People often criticise him for sitting deep working hard in midfield rather than staying around the opposition's box, but to be fair thats probably the instructions he receives from Rafa.

 

I agree with that. It is not always the players fault.

 

It is similar to when Crouch plays and our defenders start launching the ball long up to him and we get branded a 'long ball team'. It is not Crouch's fault the team do this and it doesn't make much sense as he's better with the ball on the ground anyway.

[Rimbeux]

He's in a tough place, because he's very much a team player and we dont really attack as a team (we defend as one), more relying on the individual attacking players to make something happen. Very often he gets in positions where if he had great vision or a great pass, he would be able to pick out one man among many defenders, but what he needs are more targets and options, more players getting forward to play off to make use of his hard running.

[Cooger]

He's in a tough place, because he's very much a team player and we dont really attack as a team (we defend as one)

 

I think at the moment we're defending as a team due to Hyypia's lack of pace. But I expect once Agger comes back we'll push higher up the field as a team and hopefully start attacking as one.

 

Also with Alonso out we're struggling to pass the ball or even keep it for long periods, that can't help a player such as Kuyt who as you say needs possession and runners.

[Rimbeux]

I think at the moment we're defending as a team due to Hyypia's lack of pace. But I expect once Agger comes back we'll push higher up the field as a team and hopefully start attacking as one.

 

Also with Alonso out we're struggling to pass the ball or even keep it for long periods, that can't help a player such as Kuyt who as you say needs possession and runners.

 

 

Should help him, he did start the season well. I suppose the question is if he has the quality to make a consistent difference, his hard work will always see him in favour. One thing the bothers me greatly is this idea that we are so reliant on individuals still. If our form can be put down to Agger and Alonso mainly (I'm not so sure, Pompey was also poor). If it is true it shows up massive weaknesses in the squad system and squad building, otherwise there is something lacking in preparation/attitude to make our passing and movement so poor.

[Cooger]

One thing the bothers me greatly is this idea that we are so reliant on individuals still.

 

But is it not a case of all teams missing their best players?

 

When Ronaldo and Rooney were injured / suspended at the beginning of the season they were missed.

[Joxer]

If Kuyt isn't going to create much, isn't getting in the box much, it makes you wonder what he's offering at times other than hard work.

 

Exactly

[Rimbeux]

But is it not a case of all teams missing their best players?

 

When Ronaldo and Rooney were injured / suspended at the beginning of the season they were missed.

 

Not greatly, and I mean that. They were struggling to put the ball in the back of the net and were over-playing as Arsenal were often accused of, but they were not playing poorly. Now they are without the three main central midfielders and are still rattling up goals and wins, the likes of Fletcher and O'Shea slotting in fine. Those are never better than Masch for example, but it's significant to my eyes that the attitude and mentality of Man U is to take the game to the oppo, attack with numbers and put them under pressure, cause them bother, it's rare that they (have to) sit back. It's something we dont really do and makes it hard to get out of a rut and reliant on individuals form to create danger for the oppo.

[Cooger]

I don't think you can say we're reliant on individuals because which ones?

 

Gerrard, Alonso, Agger, Carragher, Reina, Torres... that's half the team.

 

It is a shame Alonso and Agger both got injured at the same time. If Alonso doesn't start our moves picking the ball deep from the defenders, Agger will bring the ball out of defense. With them both out Gerrard drops deeper to start the moves when really he's needed higher up the field where he can hurt the opposition in the final third.

 

I agree about the mentality though. Pako at the beginning of the season said the biggest hurdle for the club was changing the mentality. Man U go out with the intent to attack teams and make the opposition worry about stopping them. It seems to me at times we are reactive looking to stop the opposition, then thinking about winning rather than just playing to our strengths. As I said with Agger out and the team defending deeper we're inviting more pressure.

 

At the beginning of the season against Chelsea we went out with the intent to attack and win the game with an attacking line up. It was pro active and Chelsea were changing their team to cope with ours.

[Elisha_Scott]

I remember when scoring the winning goal in the Derby made you an instant legend. Nowadays people just moan

 

Thats a cop-out though. The lad is trying to make a point about one of our players, a very valid point too. Just because he scored in a derby doesn't mean a thing. It seems that nobody can make a negative point about any of our players without being looked down on by all the 'superior fans' on here.

In MY *** opinion the team we had out against Besiktas had 5 maybe 6 players in it who are decent, but nothing to write home about. You can carry maybe 2 in a good side, but not 6, if you are hoping to dominate most teams, as we should.

And thats taking into account Xabi, Agger and Torres being out. I mean at any one time, we should still only be playing 2 'do-a-job' players.

We should have some of the best in their position in the country and Europe. Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carra, Finnan, Reina, Agger are the only ones I would put in that category. I know some will include Mascherano, but even so, its not really good enough in a squad that should be challenging to win the league.

I am hoping that Rafa can coach a 'team' though, which would go some way to negating the need for lots of great individuals, but the signs so far this season are worrying.

I really hope everyones concerns are unnecessary though, things may 'click', lets hope so.

 

*** Definitely not HIS opinion.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Elisha_Scott

[AE]

*** Definitely not HIS opinion.

 

His = Mr Hyde or Dr Jekyll???

[_00_deathscar]

We should have some of the best in their position in the country and Europe. Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carra, Finnan, Reina, Agger are the only ones I would put in that category. I know some will include Mascherano, but even so, its not really good enough in a squad that should be challenging to win the league.

 

Mancs won it with Rooney, Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand, Vidic, Neville, van der Sar...

[Redkop]

I am bemused when I read threads like this... making out that Kuyt isn't good enough. Surely his record at Feyenoord proved that he is a goal scorer if played as an out and out striker and not how Rafa plays him!

 

For club and country.

2003-04 - 22 goals

2004-05 - 36 goals

2005-06 - 25 goals

 

He left Feyenoord with a record of 83 goals in 122 appearances and was 2005-6 Dutch Player of the Year.

 

His first season for Liverpool - 14 goals..... so what's gone wrong since he came to Liverpool, being played in a different position/PL is a tougher league/ Liverpool's style of playing?

[Elisha_Scott]

Mancs won it with Rooney, Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand, Vidic, Neville, van der Sar...

 

I know, which is the other side of the coin, when Rafa needs to be looked at. Wenger is a perfect example of not having to buy proven individuals to turn them into a great team. Ferguson and Wenger have both created several different very good sides at their clubs, they both have different methods, but basically, it is about team building. Us missing Xabi and Agger so much is a problem we shouldn't be suffering so badly from, having had money to spend in the summer.

[Cooger]

His first season for Liverpool - 14 goals..... so what's gone wrong since he came to Liverpool, being played in a different position/PL is a tougher league/ Liverpool's style of playing?

 

I think the problem is he's been the supporting striker rather than the player right upfront and in the box.

 

For me he is often seen in between midfield and attack, linking play. I feel he doesn't have the guile, touch, creation or general spark in that position. For me if Kuyt plays it should be right upfront. Especially when you have Gerrard, Kewell, Voronin, Yossi mabye even Babel who can play as the supporting striker role and in my opinion more effectively.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Hydie

[Rimbeux]

I don't think you can say we're reliant on individuals because which ones?

 

Gerrard, Alonso, Agger, Carragher, Reina, Torres... that's half the team.

 

It is a shame Alonso and Agger both got injured at the same time. If Alonso doesn't start our moves picking the ball deep from the defenders, Agger will bring the ball out of defense. With them both out Gerrard drops deeper to start the moves when really he's needed higher up the field where he can hurt the opposition in the final third.

 

I agree about the mentality though. Pako at the beginning of the season said the biggest hurdle for the club was changing the mentality. Man U go out with the intent to attack teams and make the opposition worry about stopping them. It seems to me at times we are reactive looking to stop the opposition, then thinking about winning rather than just playing to our strengths. As I said with Agger out and the team defending deeper we're inviting more pressure.

 

At the beginning of the season against Chelsea we went out with the intent to attack and win the game with an attacking line up. It was pro active and Chelsea were changing their team to cope with ours.

 

I say individuals because there are lots making a case that our poor form is down to missing those two players and how it affects the way we play. If that's true then we dont have an interchangeable squad where diiferent players can be slotted in and out without dropping the level or the method of play as the manager intends. I say individuals because we ask our attacking players to do a large amount of their work without support as we dont attack with numbers, putting more on their individual ability hence Kuyt looking short.

 

The Chelsea game is a great call, because we were showing that we'd woken up as an offensive force. I personally think we're very reliant on Torres as a threat, as teams dont believe we can hurt them otherwise and are not going to over-run them, giving them security in just competing and staying compact.

[Ben 23]

I agree, he's not good enough. Basically because as you pointed out he offers little other than work rate. Are people still comparing him with Keegan?

[Rimbeux]

I think the problem is he's been the supporting striker rather than the player right upfront and in the box.

 

For me he is often seen in between midfield and attack, linking play. I feel he doesn't have the guile, touch, creation or general spark in that position. For me if Kuyt plays it should be right upfront.

 

 

If we played him right up front and really pushed teams back, got men up and beyond him regularly, that would work, but not as we currently are as the front man needs to have pace to get in on goal, as he wont have much support and will be a distance away when he gets the ball.