Rotation

[Gunga Din]

in theory, rotation is great, players are fresher, fitter, playing against jaded and tired players. it should be simple enough. but it doesnt work, and there is a very simple reason why rotation doesnt work.

 

what rotation does, is kill competition for places. successful teams thrive on competition for places, the greatest Liverpool sides built success on competition for places, they dreaded getting injured incase whoever took their place did so well they held onto the shirt. Rotation is like the "anti competition".

It doesnt mater a single jot how well a player is playing, or indeed how badly they play, there is still the same chance of them playing the following week. Take Torres as an example, scored 2 against Derby, looks to be enjoying it, finding rythmn with his team mates, turns up at Portsmouth. Benched. then you have Riise, playing s****, cant do anything right at the minute,in the team at the expense of Finnan and then Arbeloa is shipped over to the right to accomodate Riise. Am i the only one who cant see that this whole rotational system is all b******s. it hasnt worked in any of Rafas three league campaigns, it isnt working now, and its never going to work.

 

people bang on about the size of our squad, and the quality of our squad. but for me its too big, too many choices, too many players playing in fits and starts, a game here, three games there, a sub appearance here, nowhere to be seen for 3 weeks. how the hell can any of them be expected to come in cold after 3 weeks away and play well against opposition who ae playing together as a team and as a unit every game. the whole rotation system is flawed at its most basic level.

 

if we are going tomount a challenge for the league, he is going to have to get his best 11, play it, and stick with it, bar injuries or an horrendous run of form by a player. but he wont do that. and because he wont do that, we will have to contend with another season of hit and miss league form and no title challenge. and what makes that the hardest of all to take this season, is the factthat we have the team to win the league. our first 11 is as good as anyones.

Edited September 23, 2007 by big wayne

[sutty]

FFS Wayne.

 

COuld this not have gone in one of the other threads dealing with this. Possily one of the few started by you?

[Guest Snorky]

Scored two against Derby

 

Some valid points mate. I don't agree with rotation myself, but it always appears when things are bad. We've rotated during some good periods as well.

 

I am all for playing your best XI and let the opposition worry you. I've read/heard that Rafa thought Voronin and Kuyt would have more success against Birmingham than any other partnership. Don't agree with this.

[Earl Hafler]

FFS Wayne.

 

COuld this not have gone in one of the other threads dealing with this. Possily one of the few started by you?

 

Calm down, Suttey.

[Knox_Harrington]

I agree with the policy but it's the manner within which it's employed which is irritating. I also feel that they way it is employed currently could be anti-competitive; not being within the set up it's hard to judge that though.

 

I certainly feel there has to be good reason to rest a goalscoring forward.

[dorgie]

I believe that midfield is the area where rotation works most successfully and where it is probably most needed because by the very nature of the position, it requires the most energy and running.

 

The defence is best left together for as long as possible and same with the strikers, i.m.o.

[Gunga Din]

FFS Wayne.

 

COuld this not have gone in one of the other threads dealing with this. Possily one of the few started by you?

 

Few started by me? which few are they. i have started one.

 

i felt it needed its own topic. is that ok? if you dont like it having its own topic, then merge it in with another

[sutty]

in theory, rotation is great, players are fresher, fitter, playing against jaded and tired players. it should be simple enough. but it doesnt work, and there is a very simple reason why rotation doesnt work.

 

what rotation does, is kill competition for places. successful teams thrive on competition for places, the greatest Liverpool sides built success on competition for places, they dreaded getting injured incase whoever took their place did so well they held onto the shirt. Rotation is like the "anti competition".

It doesnt mater a single jot how well a player is playing, or indeed how badly they play, there is still the same chance of them playing the following week. Take Torres as an example, scored 2 against Birmingham, looks to be enjoying it, finding rythmn with his team mates, turns up at Portsmouth. Benched. then you have Riise, playing s****, cant do anything right at the minute,in the team at the expense of Finnan and then Arbeloa is shipped over to the right to accomodate Riise. Am i the only one who cant see that this whole rotational system is all b******s. it hasnt worked in any of Rafas three league campaigns, it isnt working now, and its never going to work.

 

people bang on about the size of our squad, and the quality of our squad. but for me its too big, too many choices, too many players playing in fits and starts, a game here, three games there, a sub appearance here, nowhere to be seen for 3 weeks. how the hell can any of them be expected to come in cold after 3 weeks away and play well against opposition who ae playing together as a team and as a unit every game. the whole rotation system is flawed at its most basic level.

 

if we are going tomount a challenge for the league, he is going to have to get his best 11, play it, and stick with it, bar injuries or an horrendous run of form by a player. but he wont do that. and because he wont do that, we will have to contend with another season of hit and miss league form and no title challenge. and what makes that the hardest of all to take this season, is the factthat we have the team to win the league. our first 11 is as good as anyones.

 

I don't agree with bits of this

 

I take the general point. I think the you don't need to play well to get a game point is a very interesting one actually. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective.

 

That said, I think rotation can work if it is handled correctly. The weird thing about what Rafa does is that he will leave his defence virtually untouched (I think yesterday was ideal to rest one of Finnan or Arbeloa actually). His selection of centre mids was pretty consistent. But for some reason out wide and up front his tinkering is prolific. It's odd. My view is that we have a couple of issues. 1stly, he over rotates and he is doing it to the wrong players. 2ndly... Torres has no back up that I can see. IMO Veronin, Kuyt and Crouch are 1 type of striker and torres is another. If torres doesn't play, the difference is tangible. Bellamy is closer to Torres than Crouch for example. I wonder if he has sold the wrong one.

Edited September 23, 2007 by sutty

[Earl Hafler]

I agree with the policy but it's the manner within which it's employed which is irritating. I also feel that they way it is employed currently could be anti-competitive; not being within the set up it's hard to judge that though.

 

I certainly feel there has to be good reason to rest a goalscoring forward.

 

Main problems - Crouch or Benayoun come in and in the back of their mind they know that play well, score or play shyte, there's a good chance they're back on the bench the following week. People might moan about their wages but Crouch wants to wear the shirt.

 

Our forward line is like " Call My Bluff ".

[sutty]

Few started by me? which few are they. i have started one.

 

i felt it needed its own topic. is that ok? if you dont like it having its own topic, then merge it in with another

 

Shut up you tart

[Knox_Harrington]

Reina, Carragher, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should start every league game unless woefully short of form or injured. You want to give them a rest, do it in other competitions or take them off with half an hour left on the occasions we've wrapped it up. That's as good a spine than any other in the league, use it to our advantage.

[Knox_Harrington]

Main problems - Crouch or Benayoun come in and in the back of their mind they know that play well, score or play shyte, there's a good chance they're back on the bench the following week. People might moan about their wages but Crouch wants to wear the shirt.

 

Our forward line is like " Call My Bluff ".

Yep. Build it around the six I mentioned and let the others work for their shirt. If they get a chance and take it then give them the next game.

 

Agree with you Crouch has had it worse than anyone. He was taking it all over the place last season.

[Mascherano]

I totally agree on the rotation issue Wayne. The question is whether Rafa will ever change?

 

I love Rafa, but I am actually starting to wonder about the best alternatives. Juande Ramos?

 

I don't agree that our squad is as good as anyones though. I think that alot of our players are over rated by our fans. However, a first 11 playing week in week out could get us close enough to the title to make it exciting.

 

Further, will rafa's cautious approach ever be a winning formula in this league? I ask this because it seems as if attacking teams USUALLY win the league. At least, teams with creators in the attacking final third AND wingers (of quality).

[Knox_Harrington]

I love Rafa, but I am actually starting to wonder about the best alternatives. Juande Ramos?

Don't be daft.

[John am Rhein]

Whoever the alternative is it'll obviously have to be someone who

 

1) renounces rotation

2) can create world class wingers like rabbits out of a hat

3) prefers to loose possession than 'hoof' the ball up the other end of the field

[Magic8Ball]

rotation relies on the players coming in hitting the ground running and providing more than adequate cover/replacement for the players missing.

despite protestations to the contrary our squad lack the quality to rotate in anywhere other than CM

 

1 we dont have a ball playing stand in for Agger

2 we dont have a alternative striker who can create something out of nothing like Torres

3 we dont even a have Class a ( its an eggs joke ) wingers in the first place let alone replacements

 

so rotation is bound to catch us out from time to time, especially after internationals !

If I were Rafa I would put out a rotation team against Reading and treat the short break as a mini pre season to get the players buzzing again

[IgPig]

Rotations fine.

 

He's just seems to be doing it on the wrong players at the wrong time

Edited September 23, 2007 by Post Kuytal Glow

[McBain]

I've always hated rotation. I dont believe the positives outweigh the negatives. The start of the season almost had me convinced it was the way but there was always a nagging doubt.

 

Nobody is saying play the same 11 each week but the team seems to be picked on fitness over all things. It's great to be fit and firing in March but if your 10 points off the pace you're f***ed

[fred milne]

Reina, Carragher, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should start every league game unless woefully short of form or injured. You want to give them a rest, do it in other competitions or take them off with half an hour left on the occasions we've wrapped it up. That's as good a spine than any other in the league, use it to our advantage.

Spot on. Those six are the key players who shouldn't be rotated.

[Molby]

it's really quite simple:

 

make the subs much earlier, i.e half time or at 50 mins

 

THAT WAY, Voronin, perhaps surprised to find himself starting, knows he must give everything and more or less play a blinder to stay on

 

and Torres, initially downhearted, knows he is very likely to come on and get plenty of game time

 

had I been Rafa yesterday I would have brought Crouch on for Voronin at half time in order to change tactics, bed him in and observe the tactics for 10 minutes

 

then brought on Torres

[Earl Hafler]

So you would have started with the same forwards ?

[sutty]

it's really quite simple:

 

make the subs much earlier, i.e half time or at 50 mins

 

THAT WAY, Voronin, perhaps surprised to find himself starting, knows he must give everything and more or less play a blinder to stay on

 

and Torres, initially downhearted, knows he is very likely to come on and get plenty of game time

 

had I been Rafa yesterday I would have brought Crouch on for Voronin at half time in order to change tactics, bed him in and observe the tactics for 10 minutes

 

then brought on Torres

 

 

That's another interesting one

 

I'd like to see Rafa do that. Grasp the nettle.

[sutty]

One thing...

 

I actually think that yesterday was the sort of game right for rotation. And he didn't massively tinker.

 

He only took Torres out.

[Knox_Harrington]

One thing...

 

I actually think that yesterday was the sort of game right for rotation. And he didn't massively tinker.

 

He only took Torres out.

It was right for rotation. I agree. But you need to start your key men in every league game when they are fit. That's the problem and it's part of what's created the flatness for the last two league games. The other five can be f***ing whoever.

 

EDIT: And if one of the five plebs was boss in the last game let him have the next one as well.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Knox_Harrington

[sutty]

It was right for rotation. I agree. But you need to start your key men in every league game when they are fit. That's the problem and it's part of what's created the flatness for the last two league games. The other five can be f***ing whoever.

 

The mancs and chelsea have and will continue to rest Rooney, Ronaldo and Drogba for that sort of game.