Should we expect more from youth?

[theredfella]

With the defence of our FA Youth Cup kicking off today, something I read recently leapt to mind. The last time we won the FA Youth Cup prior to last year (1996), only three of the team made it to the first team - David Thompson, Jamie Carragher and Michael Owen. All three made two appearances the following season and it was only the season after that they really started to break through. Owen we all know about but Thommo only managed about fifty games before he was shipped out and it took Carragher until only really three years ago to cement a regular first team spot in a settled position.

 

By contrast, only one member of last year's winning team (Miki Roque) has made the breakthrough to the first team and even then it was for two minutes at the end of the CL game in Turkey. As for the others, a few bench stints but that's it.

 

Should we expect a little more from the kids or does it just go to show the step up required to make it at the highest level? Or does the situation reflect that maybe the coaching and guidance they receive isn't enough for them to make the grade?

 

This is my first thread at the top table so go easy

[monkey puzzle]

Carra has been a regular and played 40+ matches a season bar injury since about 1999.

[theredfella]

Carra has been a regular and played 40+ matches a season bar injury since about 1999.

 

Not in a settled position though. Back then he was played wherever we needed someone to fill in in the back line.

[Maldini]

The majority of the team that won it are still eligible for it this year, we had one of the youngest squads ever to win it. I'd give it a couple of years before making judgements on them. There are a few with the potential to be very good footballers.

[Magic8Ball]

I think the biggest problem with our youth is they dont get enough games at the right level - this certainly impacted on Pongolle and Le Tallec

[monkey puzzle]

Not in a settled position though. Back then he was played wherever we needed someone to fill in in the back line.

 

 

Who cares about a settled position, he is about to make his 450th appearence for the club.

[£440,000]

Three players becoming established Premiership players from one youth team is probably a pretty good return. It's the nature of youth systems that only a few players will cut it at the top level. Every Premiership club has a first team squad of roughly twenty to thirty players. The ages of those players range from as young as 16 up to 40. A youth team/squad is selected from a much narrower age band, so by definition only a few players from each youth team are ever going to make it at the top level. The United youth team of Beckham, the Nevilles etc was exceptional. United have yet to repeat the trick and possibly never will.

 

Here's a gratuitous pic of our lot in '96.

 

Edited January 13, 2007 by £440,000

[nd]

Not in a settled position though. Back then he was played wherever we needed someone to fill in in the back line.

 

And for one of those seasons he was probably our best left back since the 80s.

[nd]

Some interesting facts about kids from the youth teams of 'the big four' in The Times today:

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,283-2543669,00.html

 

I'd say that Carra, Gerrard, and Owen represent an excellent return when you look at the journeymen from all four clubs in that list. You'd only want Terry, Cole, and Fabregas.

 

The Arsenal defeats have got everyone spooked, and it's obvious that Rafa ain't happy with the Academy, but it's not like any of our rivals are churning out home-grown footballing heroes. Buying in youth talent seems to be the order of the day, and Rafa is sorting that one out.

Edited January 13, 2007 by nd

[Cheesecake]

no guarantees that any of the youth winners will make it, but if they were to play in the same 'way' as the senior squad regarding positions, formations, tactics at corners, style of play, were to recieve as close to identical training and coaching as humanely possible they would be best placed to step up if/when the chance arose

 

Unless the relationship between Rafa and his Coaches with the academy is so close as to be totally in sync then I think the lack of players breaking thru will be an issue.

Edited January 13, 2007 by DPD1973

[Magic8Ball]

Some interesting facts about kids from the youth teams of 'the big four' in The Times today:

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,283-2543669,00.html

 

I'd say that Carra, Gerrard, and Owen represent an excellent return when you look at the journeymen from all four clubs in that list. You'd only want Terry, Cole, and Fabregas.

 

The Arsenal defeats have got everyone spooked, and it's obvious that Rafa ain't happy with the Academy, but it's not like any of our rivals are churning out home-grown footballing heroes. Buying in youth talent seems to be the order of the day, and Rafa is sorting that one out.

well despite the fact that so many people on this forum hate Houllier, one thing he did know about was academies and he didnt like the way Heighway was running ours - now it seems to some degree Rafa agrees

[fyds]

well despite the fact that so many people on this forum hate Houllier, one thing he did know about was academies and he didnt like the way Heighway was running ours - now it seems to some degree Rafa agrees

Not wholly without merit, that arguement. Heighway has always seemed to run the academy almost as if it was nothing familial to do with LFC, rather than hopefully being the supplier of the next generation. Rafa I believe wants them to learn, train and play in the way the senior players do - so when they make the step up, it's less of a giant leap.

[Knox_Harrington]

I think O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown have certainly helped Man U. If nothing else it means they don't have to spend the £3mish each would cost to have in their squad. No one expects a Gerrard every year but it would be good to have solid squad players coming from the Academy.

[Sion]

I get the feeling from some post on Liverpool forums that people expect at least 1 quality player a year to come through the ranks, this just doesn't happen.

Edited January 13, 2007 by Sion

[Guest Scot]

I get the feeling from some post on Liverpool forums that people expect at least 1 quality player a year, this just doesn't happen.

 

I think as an average that's not unreasonable. By 'quality' I mean someone like Warnock who gets regular games. They don't all need to be Owen or Gerrard.

[Sion]

I think as an average that's not unreasonable. By 'quality' I mean someone like Warnock who gets regular games. They don't all need to be Owen or Gerrard.

 

I mean people expect an Owen or Gerrard. Guthrie for example looks like a 'warnock' type youngster. I.E he'll flirt with the first team before moving on after not making it. How many World Class/quality Players have Man Utd brought through the past 7-8 years? Arsenal? (actually through their ranks not by poaching) Chelsea? Everton? Spurs? Newcastle? The answer is not many. Either through a lack of just talent, or a lack of first team chances.

Edited January 13, 2007 by Sion

[Magic8Ball]

I think O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown have certainly helped Man U. If nothing else it means they don't have to spend the £3mish each would cost to have in their squad. No one expects a Gerrard every year but it would be good to have solid squad players coming from the Academy.

Thats exactly it - the academy should protect us from having to spend 6m on a squad player --- we should only be buying promising youngsters and players capable of walking into the first team as they are better than what we have

[fyds]

I think as an average that's not unreasonable. By 'quality' I mean someone like Warnock who gets regular games. They don't all need to be Owen or Gerrard.

If we were doing it right, I would reckon that's about fair. Peltier, Guthrie, Hobbs, Anderson, Antwe and Hamill are all almost thereabouts - next season we may see a bit more of a few of them.

[Guest Scot]

I mean people expect an Owen or Gerrard. Guthrie for example looks like a 'warnock' type youngster. I.E he'll flirt with the first team before moving on after not making it. How many World Class/quality Players have Man Utd brought through the past 7-8 years? Arsenal? (actually through their ranks not by poaching) Chelsea? Everton? Spurs? Newcastle? The answer is not many. Either through a lack of just talent, or a lack of first team chances.

 

I'm not bothered whether they're from Kensington or we bought them at 15 from some French outfit though. Main thing is that we get young 'reserve' players for little money and get a chance to coach into the them the style/skills we want from a first-teamer. Not many of Arsenal's are from Islington, but it hardly matters really.

 

I think we do okay to be honest. One or two more would be nice but we've had more success than most.

[nd]

I think O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown have certainly helped Man U. If nothing else it means they don't have to spend the £3mish each would cost to have in their squad. No one expects a Gerrard every year but it would be good to have solid squad players coming from the Academy.

 

I agree with that (although Manc friends of mine would say that they've helped Man U be average). I guess the likes of Warnock and (in the past) Thompson have done similarly for us, although not as well.

 

But, still, you wouldn't swap our list of players for theirs, or Arsenal's, or Chelsea's.

[Sion]

I'm not bothered whether they're from Kensington or we bought them at 15 from some French outfit though. Main thing is that we get young 'reserve' players for little money and get a chance to coach into the them the style/skills we want from a first-teamer. Not many of Arsenal's are from Islington, but it hardly matters really.

 

I think we do okay to be honest. One or two more would be nice but we've had more success than most.

 

I personally think on the whole the academy is worthless. That is if we're going to carry on buying 16/17 year old's from abroad. There will soon be no point to it. Imagine the money per average youth player it must cost the club to support for 8years or so before realising they won't make it. Do we carry on with this at the slight hope we'll get another Gerrard or Carra to make it worthwhile?

[Guest Scot]

I personally think on the whole the academy is worthless. That is if we're going to carry on buying 16/17 year old's from abroad. There will soon be no point to it. Imagine the money per average youth player it must cost the club to support for 8years or so before realising they won't make it. Do we carry on with this at the slight hope we'll get another Gerrard or Carra to make it worthwhile?

 

I think it's still worth it. Most of the investment was up-front cost, I doubt the maintenance cost is terribly significant in the scheme of things. If you look at what we made/saved on Fowler, Owen, McManaman and Gerrard alone it's probably worth it. One good 'un every 10 years is probably sufficient.

 

I'd love to see the business plan, though...

[theredfella]

The majority of the team that won it are still eligible for it this year, we had one of the youngest squads ever to win it. I'd give it a couple of years before making judgements on them. There are a few with the potential to be very good footballers.

 

I went to see one of the Cup games last season against Carlisle and one of the things that struck me was how small some of our lad seemed. The wide lads Hamill and Anderson looked tiny although admittedly he (Hamill) scored from just inside their half so no slouch and Anderson was lively.There were a couple of big ones though, one of them was Antwi, he was a bit of a grock

 

Watching them play, you couldn't help but admire some of the stuff but at the same time thinking, you need to bulk up and quickly. The chances of a shot in the first team this season are remote at best but you'd hope to see at least one more in the Carling Cup next season. That's not unreasonable really especially given the talent of the team. Also an extra season will have probably put a bit of bulk on them so they should be in better physical shape then.

 

That was the point of my post really, this generation of kids. I think they're talented but there hasn't really been one yet who's looked like he's really going to make the step up. Obviously we're not going to have a freak Manc situation but next year it would be nice to see at least one pull away from the pack. As to who it'll be, f*ck knows

 

At a push, Hamill

[nd]

we should only be buying promising youngsters and players capable of walking into the first team as they are better than what we have

 

I don't think that's realistic. Certainly isn't the case for any club I can think of. We're not alone in paying a few million here and there for useful squad players from other clubs. I don't think the ideal situation you set out has ever or will ever be the case.

 

Our youth set-up will, if we're lucky, produce 2-3 gems every decade or so, and a few more decent squad players on top. We might make a few million selling off the rest.

 

I think the issue here is, as fyds points out, the type of player that graduates to the senior set-up. We've all heard of plenty of promising youngsters down the years, so maybe the problem is indeed to do with training rather than innate quality? Maybe the current set-up is choking the talent rather than nurturing it in the correct way?

 

Whatever, we're not alone in struggling with this problem. Arsenal and Man U, for example, should arguably be streets ahead of us given the longevity of their managers. But Wenger, for example, is mainly a very good poacher - and from his comments this week (as well as his transfer activity in snapping up promising youngsters from across the world) it looks as if Rafa wants to do better in this department as well.

[Guest Scot]

I don't think that's realistic. Certainly isn't the case for any club I can think of. We're not alone in paying a few million here and there for useful squad players from other clubs. I don't think the ideal situation you set out has ever or will ever be the case.

 

Our youth set-up will, if we're lucky, produce 2-3 gems every decade or so, and a few more decent squad players on top. We might make a few million selling off the rest.

 

I think the issue here is, as fyds points out, the type of player that graduates to the senior set-up. We've all heard of plenty of promising youngsters down the years, so maybe the problem is indeed to do with training rather than innate quality? Maybe the current set-up is choking the talent rather than nurturing it in the correct way?

 

Whatever, we're not alone in struggling with this problem. Arsenal and Man U, for example, should arguably be streets ahead of us given the longevity of their managers. But Wenger, for example, is mainly a very good poacher - and from his comments this week (as well as his transfer activity in snapping up promising youngsters from across the world) it looks as if Rafa wants to do better in this department as well.

 

 

Difference also is now that we know more than we used to, or think we do. 10 years ago we'd have scarcely a clue about youth players but the advent of fora means that lads like Raven, Welsh, Partridge and company are hyped up as certain stars before anyone has ever seen them. Same as with 'les gems' who turned out to be a bit ordinary. Our expectations are higher, unreasonably higher.