What do we need to do to go to the next level?

[alias75]

Under GH and before him under Evans i always felt the problem with the team was we would always raise our game against Man Utd, or Arsenal but would always lose or draw games we should win, this was happening home and away.

 

Under Rafa the problem seems to be the reverse, we've certainly improved against the sides we're expected to beat, but now against the other big teams we're struggling. Very often the pattern is the same, we hold our own fail to take our chances then lose the first goal and never look like getting back into the game.

 

How can we take the next step which is to be outplaying and beating our main rivals on a regular basis?

 

I think Rafa has assembled a very strong squad, if you look at the squad when he took over hes done a very good job of moving out the deadwood and bringing in quality in all areas. However when we compete against our main rivals the problems seem the same i.e a lack of quality of ruthlessness in attacking positions.

 

I think defensively we're very strong and the clean sheet records over the last few season are testament to that, however i do think we can do better than Riise at left back, hes still a useful player to have in the squad but as a starting left back i think we need someone thats better on the ball Riise gives the ball away far too much, i also think defensively our left hand side is definately being targeted by opposition managers often Riise doesn't get tight enough. Possibles for this position are Lucas Neil, Gareth Bale, Leighton Baines.

 

Central midfield i think is fine, if Mascherano does sign the blend is fantastic

 

I think its pretty obvious the main problems lie in the attacking midfield positions. Pennant isnt good enough to be starting every week, the problem is as we've found out there arent many top quality right sided attacking midfielders out there, Alves is the obvious one that Rafa obviously wants. Another option is of course playing Stevie wide right as he proved last season he can be very effective from there, if we do have Mascherano, Alonso, Sissoko for that position id play Stevie wide right where hes as good as anyone in the world, the players we have to play centrally mean he wont be missed.

 

Wide left i think is a problem position and looking at whos out there i dont see many alternatives. Vicente was a quality payer a few seasons ago, but im not sure how hes playing after injury? Theres also Simoa whose played there for Benfica. Maybe Kewell will come back better than ever but how likely is that?

 

Up front we have 3 honest players but we're really lacking that 1 superstar forward like an henry or Drogba. A lot of our problems against the big 3 has been we arent creating enough and the strikers need 3 or 4 chances to get a goal. We really need a top quality striker that can make his own chances and also is more cliical than we have at the moment. Villa and Torres are the obvious 2, it may mean we sell crouch to bring in a big money striker if that has to happen so be it.

 

I dont think we're that far off. Playing Rafa's favourite 4-2-3-1 formation we're almost there, we have a pretty solid back 5 with maybe the need for a left back, if Mascherano signs we have 3 top qualtiy defensive midfielders for that position and any 2 would do a top job, we have Stevie that can play the wide right role where he scored and created all those goals last season, i think Kujt can play the deep lying striker role really well which leaves wide left and the main striker. We arent far away.

Edited January 7, 2007 by alias75

[koppper]

I think Rafa is getting there, in order of priority we still need:

 

Right wing

Left back

World class forward

Left wing

 

The spine of the team is fine, we need to sort out the flanks and then the icing on the cake would be a world class forward.

[Rimbeux]

Play better football

 

To beat the top sides and keep defeats down you either needs special attacking players, and/or football able to s*** on the best teams, not just dominate possession.

 

To get that movement and penetration has to improve. I think we can get that with the current players with a tweak or two.

 

I'm not a great advocate of Gerrard on the right, because it isolates his influence, and doesn't play to his strengths, or indeed the teams overall, it turns him from a player who can start and finish things into one who needs supply to be involved. It's also not accurate to say he scored 23 from the right last year, because the facts are he scored most of those playing and starting in a central two, sometimes three, far less came when he started right.

 

During that long run, we held it together at the back, had two guys in Kewell and Gerrard who were strong in possession out 'wide' and a go to ball with Crouch. It can work, as does playing with two wingers and two ball players in the middle, but we are still too static with a 4-4-2 and these players.

 

My honest opinion is that a 4-3-3 could crack it for us.

 

A front three or Kuyt, Bellamy and one of the wider players Kewell, Garcia, Pennant, Gonzalez. Kuyt nominally the central man, Bellamy looking to the channels and getting in behind, and the third guy full of movement, linking play, getting wide, joining in. The key is movement.

 

Central midfield of Gerrard, and with luck any two from Alonso, Sissoko and JM, can cover all bases, protect fullbacks getting forward, and keep the best player at the heart of the game.

 

I think it will almost force us to play better foootball, try and get between defennsive lines with the passing ability we do have, but better movement, and give us more attacking options.

[muleskinner]

Get more pace in most areas of the side, we'll never win the Premiership without it.

[Magic8Ball]

interesting thoughts all - you should read the thread below I think its called something like why blame the players

 

IMO we lack players who can run with the ball - our passing game is really about Hollywood passes both from Gerrard and Alonso

which despite their quality are easy for the top teams to defend against

 

we need left mid and right mid - to be able to

 

1 run with the ball at players committing forcing them to break formation

2 be able to regularly beat a man - by going down the line or cutting inside

3 to be able to cross of play the ball accurately and effectively once the man is beaten

4 to be capable of scoring regularly

 

most people think that makes a winger but to be honest a you don't have to be classic Steve highway winger to do that

 

Our problem is we dont have anyone who can really do that, the best we have is Gerrard who when playing on the right is very good

but hes not a beat the man kind of player he's more a drive through midfield player

 

if you look at the other top teams Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal - they all have a variety of players who can run with the ball and force defenders to break formation

leaving gaps where their respective midfield's can pass through

 

 

until we get top quality LEFT AND RIGHT midfield's we will always be a cup team

[alias75]

I think the lack of available top quality wide right players means we may have to settle for Gerrard there, bringing in Mascherano (hopefully) gives us 3 very good players that can play the defensive midfield role in a 4-2-3-1 formation.

 

Gerrard probably isnt as good wide right as central but the difference is negligible. Would the team be better with a combination of Sissoko / Alonso / Mascherano in the middle and Gerrard wide right, or a combination of 2 from the 4 central midfielders and Pennant wide right? I think the majority would agree the TEAM is stronger with Gerrard wide right providing we don't have to settle for Zenden or similar in the middle. Maybe if someone like Alves could be brought in that would change things but i dont see many right wingers out there that are better than Gerrard.

 

4-3-3 is an interesting idea but im not sure playing forwards in wide positions is the way to go.

 

We do need to play a better brand of football but if you have defenders that have to huff it all the time because technically they arent good enough (Riise is guilty of this all the time) then its hard to do that. You need players that are comfortable on the ball and because its the defenders that get most of the cheap posession you need defenders that dont panic in posession. Agger and Finnan are both good in posession Carra and riise arent, you can get away with 1 of the back 4 but not 2.

Edited January 7, 2007 by alias75

[Knox_Harrington]

Think there's a fair bit of sense in amongst here. Gerrard did score a fair few from right mid though and can go out there again but as a squad I think we need a better more natural ball carrying wide right option than either Pennant or Gerrard.

 

If Kewell can return and play up to the standard of last season then he'll do. I'd also expect more from Gonzalez in his second season and think the manager is doing the right thing in perservering with him at the moment. We only need another option out there if Kewell won't make it back and even then Garcia could still sit in there as a different left wing option to Gonzalez. I still firmly believe that Barnes/Houghton is the wide midfield model to follow. With Giggs' loss of pace that's how United are playing at the moment.

 

Don't think you can rule 4-4-2 out either as one way to play but I do think that we need to look at getting a classic Liverpool number seven in as and when we get shut of Crouch along with another pacy forward. The latter could be the returning Pongolle but I doubt it. Luis isn't a number seven. Left back needs sorting at some juncture but it's hardly a real priority. Baines is a nice shout. However Riise did play left back in a side that kept 103 consecutive clean sheets so he can't be that bad, however his form is at the moment.

 

I think one thing to learn from this season is that we can't just lash four players in from the start and not expect there to be a problem getting them to settle. If we can get Mascherano this window along with Neill then that solves a few problems on that front and the other three players we require can be blooded gently over a period of time rather than thrown in.

[cestrianred]

Reina's absence was highlighted, so we know the keeper is fine.

Full backs-Riise ain't good enough, I'd go for Bale & pay big money if he's good as everyone seems to believe (I haven't seen him enough to be sure in person). Finnan needs competition.

 

Top drawer wide players OR quality fast attacking midfielders. We lack the outlet that Arsenal always have, just watch how quick they pass & interchange going forward. We need a top drawer techical player adding to our midfield-probably a £15 million type signing.

 

Up front Kuyt needs a goal poacher of the highest order to play off-Crouchy was shown up for what he is last night-average-good but not top level.

I couldn't believe Bellamy didn't come on, but reading internet reports of us going for Bent & selling Bellamy, I did just wonder if we avoided cup tieing him?

Bent seems to have the pace & power that Rafa is looking for, but I'm sure Villa would be his top target.

 

We're 3-4 players away from a title team I believe.

[Guest Ant]

We need to do what Chelsea and the Mancs have done over the past few years...

 

Buy a huge f*** off big name

[4411]

Personally I think it all comes down to the quality of players we have at the club. It should be better. Rafa's emphasis on the team is his weakness because you also need the kind of players that don't work as hard but win you games with their brilliance.

 

Also, in his first season Rafa should have eradicated the hoofs from defense and put even stronger emphasis on moving the ball forward quickly on the ground and get more movement from the players off the ball.

 

The team is also too predictable.

[alias75]

 

I think one thing to learn from this season is that we can't just lash four players in from the start and not expect there to be a problem getting them to settle. If we can get Mascherano this window along with Neill then that solves a few problems on that front and the other three players we require can be blooded gently over a period of time rather than thrown in.

 

Think thats a fair point, because of the state of the squad when Rafa took over and also the failure of some of his signings we've had to blood 5 or 6 players each season since hes been here. Hopefully now we have the basis of a solid squad, from now on what we need to do is add 2 or 3 top players to that.

 

Pre-season this year was a disaster because of the world cup most of our strongest 11 hardly figured in the warm up games, that made it even harder for the new guys to settle.

 

On the surface left back may not be a priority as you say Riise was part of a defence thats kept many clean sheets, however my query is this, is having Riise at left back affecting the type and quality of football we play? very often in tight situations he has to launch it because as we know he has no right foot and technically he isnt very good. If you watch a game of PL football its the CBs and full backs that get the most "cheap" possession i.e possession with little or no pressure on the player, therefore if you have players in those positions that are comfortable on the ball and good passers you are able to play a more flowing type of game, if you have defenders that arent good in possession and launch it often its difficult to play a posession type of game.

[Knox_Harrington]

We're 3-4 players away from a title team I believe.

I still think that's slightly disingenious - include my post in that as well by the way - in that I think if we pretty much f***ed everything else off including the European Cup, kept the bunch of players we have ince January's finished, maybe added one, then we'd be incredibly close next season. We can't, won't and shouldn't do that though.

[Rimbeux]

My thinking is from now to the end of the season.

 

I agree that Gerrard can play very well on the right, but you then have to get him the ball, and thre's one less person coming through the middle to attack and get in the box.

 

I agree with Knox in that we need a guy who can link between midfield and attack, make things happen, been needing it for a while. That man is not Gerrard and it's not Garcia. As close as we might have now is Kewell, but in the absence of that, I think movement and a front three could work. I think we could potentially get more out of Pennant touch and Garcia's goal threat buy using them that way than in the 4-4-2.

 

Come the summer we could look for those players and go on from there.

[Ombudsam]

I think the initial premise of the thread is a little misguided as we have beaten top teams under Benitez although admittedly we have struggled against them away from anfield. Yesterday i think we played well in that second half but the problem with the first half was we missed Sissoko for those two goals arsenal scored. If we do get in Mascherano (is it just me by the way who can't think of why we should be allowed to) then Gerrard can go back to wide right against the big teams. From that point onwards we either need Kewell to return and return to the form he showed against Chelsea in the semi or we need to buy a new LW who can run with the ball.

 

I think we need a top top line CF like Villa who I have wanted for ages. LB isn't going to make or break us.

[Knox_Harrington]

On the surface left back may not be a priority as you say Riise was part of a defence thats kept many clean sheets, however my query is this, is having Riise at left back affecting the type and quality of football we play? very often in tight situations he has to launch it because as we know he has no right foot and technically he isnt very good. If you watch a game of PL football its the CBs and full backs that get the most "cheap" possession i.e possession with little or no pressure on the player, therefore if you have players in those positions that are comfortable on the ball and good passers you are able to play a more flowing type of game, if you have defenders that arent good in possession and launch it often its difficult to play a posession type of game.

I think Riise's carrying a knock and has done for sometime firstly. Secondly I accept a certain amount of what you are saying about his limitations but better movement around him would make his life easier for him - he hasn't had the same consistent outlet ball this season as last - Kewell. Thirdly, if we don't want to rock the boat massively in terms of new signings - and we don't - then just perhaps he's a first team player with a great deal of experience who should be phased out gradually over the next eighteen months rather than just got shut of while we try and get an eighteen year old (Bale) used to our game right now/in July.

 

I don't believe you become a bad player overnight and think there simply must be mitigating circumstances around Riise's decline in form. I do think he would benefit from a month on the bench though.

[cestrianred]

 

 

I think we need a top top line CF like Villa who I have wanted for ages. LB isn't going to make or break us.

 

 

I beg to differ mate.

 

I think Barca would watch that game last night & know exactly how to play us next month.

Concentrating on our left flank would be a priority!

[Knox_Harrington]

If we do get in Mascherano (is it just me by the way who can't think of why we should be allowed to) then Gerrard can go back to wide right against the big teams. From that point onwards we either need Kewell to return and return to the form he showed against Chelsea in the semi or we need to buy a new LW who can run with the ball.

He doesn't need to play that well, just be the intelligent, line-hugging player he was for most of last season. Longer term still think we need a ball-carrying wide right option though.

[alias75]

LB isn't going to make or break us.

 

Im not so sure, at this level its your defenders that get the most cheap posession, teams back off and get men behind the ball meaning your CBs and fullbacks get a lot of possession. If you have a fullback like Riise that technically isnt very good and keeps launching it your not going to be playing a smooth passing game because you keep giving the ball away.

 

While its correct that Riise has been part of a defence thats kept a record number of clean sheets i wonder if hes hurting the team in other ways not defensively but in the way we're able to keep the ball.

 

*I also accept in his defence he hasn't had a consistent left winger in front of him all season*

Edited January 7, 2007 by alias75

[Ombudsam]

My thinking is from now to the end of the season.

 

I agree that Gerrard can play very well on the right, but you then have to get him the ball, and thre's one less person coming through the middle to attack and get in the box.

 

I agree with Knox in that we need a guy who can link between midfield and attack, make things happen, been needing it for a while. That man is not Gerrard and it's not Garcia. As close as we might have now is Kewell, but in the absence of that, I think movement and a front three could work. I think we could potentially get more out of Pennant touch and Garcia's goal threat buy using them that way than in the 4-4-2.

 

Come the summer we could look for those players and go on from there.

 

I don't think that's what we need. I think we need a striker who is a genuine goalscorer and has a bit of magic about him to go with Kuyt. I know it's easier said than done but I'm talking of Villa, Eto'o and Henry types. I know they are not really out there though but we're trying to win the league which is something exceptional. I wouldn't sell crouch. He's a cracking option

[Knox_Harrington]

I don't think that's what we need. I think we need a striker who is a genuine goalscorer and has a bit of magic about him to go with Kuyt. I know it's easier said than done but I'm talking of Villa, Eto'o and Henry types. I know they are not really out there though but we're trying to win the league which is something exceptional. I wouldn't sell crouch. He's a cracking option

I think long term we need both.

[cestrianred]

I think long term we need both.

 

 

I'd bite somebody's hand off giving us £12 million for Crouch.

 

We need a goalscorer (out & out) not an option!

[Knox_Harrington]

I beg to differ mate.

 

I think Barca would watch that game last night & know exactly how to play us next month.

Concentrating on our left flank would be a priority!

I don't think we can start thinking in those terms. Their left back (whichever they play) isn't the best I think we know precisely how to play them too. If we have Neill by then he'll play against Barca there but I don't think a limited right footed centre half is the answer week in, week out either.

[Rimbeux]

I think the initial premise of the thread is a little misguided as we have beaten top teams under Benitez although admittedly we have struggled against them away from anfield. Yesterday i think we played well in that second half but the problem with the first half was we missed Sissoko for those two goals arsenal scored. If we do get in Mascherano (is it just me by the way who can't think of why we should be allowed to) then Gerrard can go back to wide right against the big teams. From that point onwards we either need Kewell to return and return to the form he showed against Chelsea in the semi or we need to buy a new LW who can run with the ball.

 

I think we need a top top line CF like Villa who I have wanted for ages. LB isn't going to make or break us.

 

 

For a team needing to get back in it, I thought we were average, we didn't create much at all, and played hoof. It was similar to how spurs came at us the other week, all possession, no clue how to use it just launching it, no real danger. Arsenal, like we did, sat back too much and gave us the ball, but in reality were comfortable. That's the thing though, we're great in the lead or level, but issues come out when we go behind, others get comfortable against us.

[Knox_Harrington]

I'd bite somebody's hand off giving us £12 million for Crouch.

 

We need a goalscorer (out & out) not an option!

I'm saying we need Sammy's centre forward and a number seven.

 

I'd take twelve for Crouch and say he was a cracking bit of business who did really well for us but the time is right. I'd probably only take it this summer though unless we have his replacement lined up now.

[cestrianred]

For a team needing to get back in it, I thought we were average, we didn't create much at all, and played hoof. It was similar to how spurs came at us the other week, all possession, no clue how to use it just launching it, no real danger. Arsenal, like we did, sat back too much and gave us the ball, but in reality were comfortable. That's the thing though, we're great in the lead or level, but issues come out when we go behind, others get comfortable against us.

 

Always the danger when we play Couch.

We play a faster on the deck game with Bellamy.