The case for the (occasional) use of 3-5-2?

[fred milne]

In an ideal world, I'd play Alonso and Gerrard in centre-mid.

 

However, to do that I think you need to have wide midfielders who can help Alonso out defensively when Gerrard goes forward (i.e. modern day equivalents of Case/Kennedy or Lee/Whelan) and/or more pace in the back line.

 

The compromise based on the players we currently have is to play 4-4-2 with Gerrard starting from the right and Sissoko given a purely destructive role.

 

That works for most games but against better teams Alonso and Sissoko struggle to get Gerrard involved enough.

 

Perhaps when this happens one idea might be to switch to 3-5-2, which we've used quite successfully at times (away to Juve, in Istanbul, away to Newcastle) and which would enable Gerrard to play through the middle without leaving the centre-backs exposed.

 

As a rule, I'm not a fan of 3-5-2 or switching between formations but we have try something - our Premiership away record against the better sides under Rafa is nothing short of woeful:

 

- 3 games at Bolton, 2 defeats and 1 draw

- 3 games at Utd, 3 defeats

- 3 games at Chelsea, 3 defeats

- 2 games at Arsenal, 2 defeats

 

I guess the alternative is to try 4-3-3 with Gerrard as one of the midfield three but, in contrast to Chelsea, I'm not sure we have wingers with sufficient goal threat to make this work.

[chiliking]

I love 3-5-2, or the thought of it. I would go for Paletta, Agger and Carra, with Riise/Finnan or Speedy/Pennant on the wings. With Alonso and Sissoko playing so deep we'd get enough cover at the back.

If only Alves were ours ......

[Internationinteroperability]

I guess the alternative is to try 4-3-3 with Gerrard as one of the midfield three but, in contrast to Chelsea, I'm not sure we have wingers with sufficient goal threat to make this work.

 

Chelsea played with that formation for a while without wingers at all

 

I don't think Rafa would use 4-3-3 though. If so it would be more like 4-5-1 with, let's say, González and Pennant as wing strikers

 

 

I love 3-5-2, or the thought of it. I would go for Paletta, Agger and Carra, with Riise/Finnan or Speedy/Pennant on the wings. With Alonso and Sissoko playing so deep we'd get enough cover at the back.

If only Alves were ours ......

 

I like the idea of 3-5-2 too. I remember us beating Newcastle 3-1 at their ground with one of our most convincing performances under Rafa.

[anny road]

Chelsea played with that formation for a while without wingers at all

 

I don't think Rafa would use 4-3-3 though. If so it would be more like 4-5-1 with, let's say, González and Pennant as wing strikers

I like the idea of 3-5-2 too. I remember us beating Newcastle 3-1 at their ground with one of our most convincing performances under Rafa.

 

we also got beat 1-0 doing it the season before

[Guest Cardie]

How many teams play with two conventional strikers these days?

 

Most of the time you get 1 up or 1 up with 1 off leaving 3 defenders to guard 1 striker and a lack of numbers in midfield.

 

If you play teams who play 1 up with two wide and three in midfield then the wingbacks are prevented from going forward by the two wide players and you lack any service into the front players.

 

It's a formation you can use against the likes of Newcastle because they are so inept but for any half decent side I don't see how it's going to be any use.

 

4 at the back and then set you team above that how you like.

[yellow jumper]

if you played agger, hyppia, carragher with one of riise/finnan/aurelio and a genuine wide man or even steven gerrard on the other side in a 3-5-2 or even a 5-3-2 with agger asked to bring it out (allowing the midfield 3 to push higher), it would give you a certain amount of flexibility to change it defensively since carra could go to a full-back position in a 4.

 

i'll admit that currenltly we don't look secure enough to even consider it. but i do think we need to find a way to make ourselves more compact without isolating our striker(s). don't understand why crouch hasn't been used more in the league, for this reason.

[fred milne]

i do think we need to find a way to make ourselves more compact without isolating our striker(s). don't understand why crouch hasn't been used more in the league, for this reason.

Agree with that - particularly the use of Crouch away from home.

 

The other thing I've noticed is that we don't seem to be catching other teams offside as much this season. Last season, we had the offside trap down to a fine art.

 

I got the impression that after the first 10 minutes on Sunday we defended quite deep. If that's the case then that's only going to contribute to the strikers getting isolated.

[Guest Anders Honoré]

with a 3-5-2 you need your wide men to actually stay wide. gerrard would never work there. Besides, who the hell would you play in the centre alongside momo and xabi then?

[fred milne]

with a 3-5-2 you need your wide men to actually stay wide. gerrard would never work there. Besides, who the hell would you play in the centre alongside momo and xabi then?

I wasn't suggesting having Gerrard out wide - he'd play through the middle ahead of Momo and Xabi.

[Guest Anders Honoré]

george lees was though.

[yellow jumper]

george lees was though.

 

i was. he'll do it if you ask him to. i think benitez gives him license to come inside from the right, i just think he some times picks the wrong occasions to do it. i think he'll sit in midfield too if you ask him to, although i don't think it's the best way to use him by far.

 

some times i think his decision making in terms of when to go and when to stay is poor. which is why i don't think you can put him in the middle and get the very best out of him without two holding midfielders.

 

i'd be happy to see him in a straight up and down wing-back role. i think he'd be exceptional.

[Guest Anders Honoré]

no doubt. It would be gutting to see him running up and down the flank with zenden pulling the strings in midfield alongside xabi and momo though.

[fred milne]

some times i think his decision making in terms of when to go and when to stay is poor. which is why i don't think you can put him in the middle and get the very best out of him without two holding midfielders.

I'd go along with that. You can make a comparison with someone like Scholes, who is a great judge of when to hit the box.

[Knox_Harrington]

I'd go along with that. You can make a comparison with someone like Scholes, who is a great judge of when to hit the box.

Which is why he can't play off a front man. Hasn't the guile.

 

Think Gerrard would work nicely in a 3-5-2 with Momo and Xabi just wonder who could play right. Pennant has been so feeble (physically) that you wouldn't entrust him with a flank.

[fred milne]

Think Gerrard would work nicely in a 3-5-2 with Momo and Xabi just wonder who could play right. Pennant has been so feeble (physically) that you wouldn't entrust him with a flank.

Based on the current squad, I had Finnan and Aurelio in mind for the wing-backs.

 

Someone like Alves would probably be a more natural fit for the right-hand side role than Finnan, though.

Edited October 24, 2006 by fred milne

[Knox_Harrington]

Based on the current squad, I had Finnan and Aurelio in mind for the wing-backs.

I'd say both is too defensive but I could be wrong. It's a concerning lack of pace in wide areas. Suddenly you have to pick Bellamy and probably Kuyt.

 

I'd like to see the shape used though.

[fred milne]

I'd say both is too defensive but I could be wrong.

There's nowt defensive about Aurelio!

[Knox_Harrington]

Someone like Alves would probably be a more natural fit for the right-hand side role than Finnan, though.

I think that's why we were so interested in him. Aurelio doesn't strike me as a man who can get up and down either. At the moment though anything that can remind players how to control, pass and tackle is a start.

 

Off topic, Fred, but two other points - think you called it before the season began that Carra would start to pick up wear and tear injuries and that seems to be happening. He needs a couple of games out at some point soon. And tomorrow night could make or break Paul Anderson's career. The major concern when I saw him was how lightweight he was but Pennant has been to this point about as lightweight a player I've seen play for us in years. Anderson can force his way in.

[Guest Anders Honoré]

There's nowt defensive about Aurelio!

Edited October 24, 2006 by Anders Honoré

[Knox_Harrington]

There's nowt defensive about Aurelio!

He isn't a ball carrier though is what I mean!

[fred milne]

I think that's why we were so interested in him. Aurelio doesn't strike me as a man who can get up and down either.

That's a good point about the stamina you need for the wing-back role but otherwise Aurelio seems better suited to that position than any other I can think of for him.

 

At full-back, he has played in some decent balls on the overlap but his defending makes Riise look like Baresi in comparison. When he plays at left-mid, he looks a bit lost to me.

 

Two other points - think you called it before the season began that Carra would start to pick up wear and tear injuries and that seems to be happening. He needs a couple of games out at some point soon. And tomorrow night could make or break Paul Anderson's career. The major concern when I saw him was how lightweight he was but Pennant has been to this point about as lightweight a player I've seen play for us in years. Anderson can force his way in.

Carra probably could do with a rest but we also need a settled defence and his organisation skills if we are ever going to tighten up at the back again.

 

I've not really seen anything of Anderson to be honest.

Edited October 24, 2006 by fred milne

[Ombudsam]

Anderson seems like he doesn't have a trick. I think lack of application and confidence are bigger problems than tactics really

[CaptainXabi]

My opinion is that we switch to 4-3-3 like the Chelsea of 2 years past or Barcelona.

 

FINNAN - CARRA - AGGER - RIISE

 

-----------------XABI

-------------------------BIG MO

----------GERRARD

 

----BELLAMY--------------SPEEDY

-----------------KUYT

 

 

I like that arrangement because it can dynamically be reconfigured into a lot of formations during the game, and I think plays to the teams strengths more. It solves the following things, which I think are issues:

 

1. Provides Gerrard central space to burst into (if he doesn't get it, he'll wander until he finds it, so might as well structure the wandering)

 

2. Puts 2 "wingers" who have an eye for goal. Width is good, but scoring is better. Bellamy and Gonzalez are capable of providing width and storming inside to create a chance (especially with Stevie arriving late), even if they are masters of neither. That uncertainty for the opposition defenders will only help us. Realistically, if you're defending Pennant, you know what's going to happen.

 

3. More nearby options for Momo to pass to, thus helping us retain possession.

 

4. We can actually counterattack sometimes. Again, more variety in our play, it can only help.

 

 

Of course the first thing people will say that Speedy isn't Ronaldinho. No he isn't, but a direct player can be very effective in this league. Ronaldinho's style suits Spain, I think a Robben/Duff style (which hopefully Speedy can emulate) suits England. Bellamy is very dangerous in that wing forward position - if he's happy enough to play there. I for one think he'll get plenty of goals from there and will get his chance to move centrally as Stevie swings outside occasionally into the space on the right side.

[Guest fender_rhodes]

I don't think the shape your team takes matters that much; it's the style of play employed, the natural inclination of the players' games.

 

Put Barca in a 4-5-1, 3-5-2, whatever. They have players who will always look to play triangles and a short one/two touch game.

[fred milne]

I think lack of application and confidence are bigger problems than tactics really

Even for the tougher away matches?

 

My opinion is that we switch to 4-3-3 like the Chelsea of 2 years past or Barcelona.

 

FINNAN - CARRA - AGGER - RIISE

 

-----------------XABI

-------------------------BIG MO

----------GERRARD

 

----BELLAMY--------------SPEEDY

-----------------KUYT

I like that arrangement because it can dynamically be reconfigured into a lot of formations during the game, and I think plays to the teams strengths more.

I like that idea.

 

It works as an orthodox 4-4-2 (Gerrard RM, Gonzalez LM) and can morph into a 4-3-3 if we are struggling to get Gerrard involved in the game.

Edited October 25, 2006 by fred milne