Our greatest ever manager

[Ostrich Man]

  big wayne said:

i actually agree with you 100% on this.

well youve been drinking quite a bit havent you.

 

 

how was the sunrise?

[Coyler]

  Ostrich Man said:

not sure of this but in 15 years shankly won 3 leagues, 2 fa cups and UEFA?

 

paisley in nine years won six leagues and 3 european cups and a UEFA cup?

 

isnt that right.

reckon youre more known(throughout the world) cause of paisley's efforts myself.

 

i know why Shankly gets the plaudits...what he did for you lot is undeniable.

 

but if he had stayed on do you think you would have gained the cups/leagues that you did under Paisley?

 

im not sure bout that.

It's a bit chicken and the egg all right. I'd go for Paisley myself, just about, but you can understand people voting for Shankly. Biggest toilet in Liverpool, doldrums --> dodgy semi-final defeat in European Cup, making the liver birds fly off down the Mersey, when the FA Cup was a big deal.

[Anfield Fox]

  Will said:

Poll of over 73,000 voters:

 

The poll results in full

 

1. Bill Shankly: 29,030

2. Bob Paisley: 24,302

3. Rafael Benitez: 13,350

4. Kenny Dalglish: 3,452

5. Gerard Houllier: 1,722

6. Roy Evans: 455

7. Joe Fagan: 377

8. Graeme Souness: 329

9. John McKenna: 195

10. Phil Taylor: 113

11. Don Welsh: 102

12. William Barclay: 93

13. George Patterson: 64

14. George Kay: 63

15. Matt McQueen: 60

16. David Ashworth: 50

 

Full story here

 

I presume anyone voting for Phil Taylor or Souness was having a laugh....

 

I can't beleive Fagan is only 7.

[Berger]

I'd go for Shankly as the greatest. Rebuilding would be so much difficult than inherit a championship winning team. He had to start/build from scratch. You know how difficult to gain promotion from a lower division. In a few years time he returned us as title contenders.

[badtodabone]

  Quote

I can't beleive Fagan is only 7.

 

i agree, how can he be after evans for instance?

 

id def have him at 3rd or 4th

[sutty]

Paisley/Shankly

Kenny

Rafa/Fagan

 

IMO.

[Bootle Buck]

  Ostrich Man said:

as an outsider....how is Paisley not better than shankly.

 

3 european cups to none??

 

I think even Paisley would agree to that. Shankly took a second division team to create one of the best teams in Football. paisley reluctantly but brilliantly carried it on. Shanks was a born leader one of those that only come around once in a lifetime.

[SkippyjonJones]

clearly its tough to pick past managers - with so little of them being known the further back you go then its easy to go for those in recent memory.

 

however its tough to see anyone who was more involved with the club than this man

http://www.lfchistory.net/player_profile.asp?player_id=760

 

I believe he also lived on Kemlyn road as well the whole time.

[johngibo YPC]

I've often thought that Shankly couldn't have done what Paisley did and Paisley couldn't have done what Shankly did. We were lucky to have them both.

[monkey puzzle]

Be interested to see what the older folk on here think of this - If Rafa was to win the league with us and we were then to go on in the next couple of years and backed it up with a league or Euro Cup again would he be held in as high regard as Shankly.

 

Obviously Shanks achievements were enormous and the club wouldn't be anything without him but to roll over the money machines that are Man U and Chelsea in this day and age would be huge. Suppose it is a tricky one to answer its like asking which team from certain generations would be the best but what would Rafa have to do to go top? As it happens he has started quite well......

[nd]

Paisley for me, his record is simply phenomenal.

[Shanklyanfield]

You can tell that most of the people voting on the OS are under 20!

 

No offence to Rafa and what he has done in his 2 seasons at the club (which has been fantastic) but how can he be above Fagan or Dalglish already? GH and Evans above Fagan as well?

 

I agree with the Shankly / Paisley issue! On trophies alone Paisley is above shankly by alot but if you where to ask Paisley he would tell you he couldn't have achieved anywhere near the sucess he did without the foundations that Shankly laid down!

[Huyton_Red]

  Woodsyla said:

Who's third then Huyton ?

 

Me of course

[charlie clown]

I know going back pre-Shanks there will be very few people around that can remember the managers but I find it a bit shocking that amongst those that did vote for the forgotten pre-Shanks managers that the ones that won championships don't necessarily get that far up and the guy who won us our first two Tom Watson, isn't on there at all.

 

Davis Ashworth won 2 in 3 seasons.

 

Problem with the Dalglish thing is that we now see his whole career as the boss, so the great football is dragged down with his mad transfers and weird tactics towards the end. Rafa is still, relatively speaking, in the honeymoon period.

[Figaro]

I have to agree with Charlie on this - too early to judge Rafa in what is taken for granted as a long term project.

 

I also agree with him about the pre-war managers. (F eck - I must be going soft!)

 

What is special about LFC is the relatively few managers the club has had in its history - f eck Atletico Madrid have had more managers in 9 years than the LFC total

 

I also understand why Ostrich Man has his doubts - but he's a Manc, being Irish doesn't save him this time , so his opinion doesn't hold water...(bit like the man himself)

 

FWIW

 

1. Shankly

2. Paisley

3. Fagan

4. Dalglish

5. Houllier

 

Rafa gets a temporary "special" position in-between 3 and 4 - I have enough faith in his ability and judgement. He's a legend already but I think that in two or three years' time he'll be right up there with Bill and Bob.

 

As much as I like Uncle Roy as a person I thought he lost the plot quite quickly as a manager

[Ostrich Man]

  Figaro said:

I also understand why Ostrich Man has his doubts -

 

seems im not the only one though.

[Lee W]

Anyone who is old enough to remember Kenny as a player, but just see him as just a manager needs committing !

 

Selectively I'm happy to remember him for players like Beardsley, Barnes, Houghton and Aldridge who were fantastic buys and were part of the team that played some of the best football I've seen us play.

 

Players like Speedie, Carter & Hutchison didn't really happen did they ?

[Guest Cally77]

I hate all this crap about Houllier rebuilding the club. It's a myth.

 

Sorry to you Houllier fans, but Rafa's achievements already far outweigh what Houllier did in seven years in the job.

 

Shanks

Bob

Kenny

Joe

Rafa

Edited June 14, 2006 by Cally77

[fred milne]

  RaoulD said:

In terms of the greatest ever manager it has to be Shankly.

 

Greatness is not measured purely in the number of trophies won but in what the manager achieved throughout his tenure.

 

Paisley was the most successful but his success was achieved during a period when Liverpool were already established as one of the top teams in England and had already appeared in two European finals when he was appointed.

 

Shankly took a club that had been relegated and transformed it in every way. Bob Paisley and Joe Fagan were also part of this transformation but when they took over as managers themselves, Liverpool were an established team which did not require wholesale rebuilding.

 

I think that you need to look at the position at the point in time they took up the post when comparing managers since a simple trophy count will favour those managers who were fortunate to inherit a successful winning side.

Its worth pointing out that Paisley had completely rebuilt the side he inherited by the time he left. He also did that more smoothly than Shankly did between 67 and 72.

[Guest Cally77]

  RaoulD said:

1 Shankly

2 Paisley

3 Houllier

4 Dalglish

5 Fagan

 

This is a sick joke right?

Edited June 14, 2006 by Cally77

[anny road]

  RaoulD said:

In terms of the greatest ever manager it has to be Shankly. Greatness is not measured purely in the number of trophies won but in what the manager achieved throughout his tenure. Paisley was the most successful but his success was achieved during a period when Liverpool were already established as one of the top teams in England and had already appeared in two European finals when he was appointed. Shankly took a club that had been relegated and transformed it in every way. Bob Paisley and Joe Fagan were also part of this transformation but when they took over as managers themselves, Liverpool were an established team which did not require wholesale rebuilding.

 

I think it is a little difficult to describe a manager who spent only a few seasons in the post as "our greatest ever". There is a danger that a successful season may distort the true picture. It is therefore too early to judge Rafa and I don't think Joe Fagan was in post long enough for a fair assessment to be made - It is true that he won the treble in 1984 but the following season was a major disappointment (made worse by the fact that it was Everton who won the League and nearly did their own treble!).

 

Whilst I think a case can be made for Paisley over Shankly on the basis of a trophy count, I do not see how any of the other candidates could be preferred to both of them!

 

FWIW my order would be

 

1 Shankly

2 Paisley

3 Houllier

4 Dalglish

5 Fagan

 

I am sure that the inclusion of Houllier above Kenny will raise eyebrows but I genuinely feel that Houllier's main achievement was to arrest the decline in the team and to re-establish the foundations which Shankly had originally laid. I think a lot of this is lost when you simply focus upon the matters which ultimately led to his departure but without his work we would never have been in the position we are now and we would not have appealed to managers of the calibre of Rafa Benitez or players such as Xabi Alonso. Nevertheless I suspect that history will be kinder to Houllier than it is at present and that my view is very definately a minority opinion at this point in time!

 

Kenny was our greatest ever player but as a manager I don't think he was of the same quality. It is true that he made some first class signings in Barnes, Beardsley and Aldridge but they were all known quantities (albeit underperforming at their respective clubs). On the other hand the reasons for our decline in the 1990s can be traced back to what was done and not done by Kenny to sustain the team in the future. In my opinion, and assisted with the benefit of hindsight, not enough attention was paid to the need to make signings in defensive and midfield positions to gradually replace our stars in the same seamless way that Shankly and Paisley had previously. The result was that Kenny and subsequent managers resorted to buying players who happened to be available to solve an immediate problem rather than buying the right players when they were available even if they weren't required immediately.

 

I think that you need to look at the position at the point in time they took up the post when comparing managers since a simple trophy count will favour those managers who were fortunate to inherit a successful winning side.

 

 

sorry but some of what you have posted is a pile of s****

 

Kenny left us with a squad that 10 months earlier had lifted the championship...sure it wasnt perfect and needed changes, but not what Souness did...he ripped the thing apart and replaced the players he sold with s****...the blame lies at one door and one door only...

 

Also you say that trophies alone do not make a great anager, I agree.....>So the fact that Kenny took us along after the two biggest tragedies in our history and led us out of the darkness, and was a rock when we needed him, to the detriment of his help.....There is an argument saying his conducd after Hillsborough eclipses anything the other have done

 

Houllier turned us round off the pich for sure, and on it he steadied us and made us a great cup team....Dalglish won us a Championship (x3), playing the best football I have ever seen by a Liverpool team

 

youre having a laugh

Edited June 14, 2006 by anny road

[Lee W]

  RaoulD said:

I am sure that the inclusion of Houllier above Kenny will raise eyebrows but I genuinely feel that Houllier's main achievement was to arrest the decline in the team and to re-establish the foundations which Shankly had originally laid. I think a lot of this is lost when you simply focus upon the matters which ultimately led to his departure but without his work we would never have been in the position we are now and we would not have appealed to managers of the calibre of Rafa Benitez or players such as Xabi Alonso. Nevertheless I suspect that history will be kinder to Houllier than it is at present and that my view is very definately a minority opinion at this point in time!

 

Kenny was our greatest ever player but as a manager I don't think he was of the same quality. It is true that he made some first class signings in Barnes, Beardsley and Aldridge but they were all known quantities (albeit underperforming at their respective clubs). On the other hand the reasons for our decline in the 1990s can be traced back to what was done and not done by Kenny to sustain the team in the future. In my opinion, and assisted with the benefit of hindsight, not enough attention was paid to the need to make signings in defensive and midfield positions to gradually replace our stars in the same seamless way that Shankly and Paisley had previously. The result was that Kenny and subsequent managers resorted to buying players who happened to be available to solve an immediate problem rather than buying the right players when they were available even if they weren't required immediately.

 

 

I agree that history will be kinder to Houllier but there is no way on God's earth you can put him above Dalglish, who himself rebuilt the side he inherited and won 3 League titles and 2 FA Cups in 6 years. Furthermore, although Kenny bought badly at the end of his reign I think it's a common mistake to attribute the decline seen under Souness and subsequently Evan to a few wayward purchases by Dalglish.

 

I mean Souness bought some of the worst players ever seen in the shirt in my lifetime (Clough I could understand at the time), but Dicks, Ruddock, Walters, Piechnik, Stewart etc.

 

Houllier did some excellent work in re-establishing the foundations of the club (discipline, respect, work-rate, quality on the pitch etc.)and gave us an amazing season in 2000/2001 but he falls below Shankly, Paisley, Dalglish, Fagan and just below Rafa in my opinion.

[Berger]

  Cally77 said:

I hate all this crap about Houllier rebuilding the club. It's a myth.

 

Sorry to you Houllier fans, but Rafa's achievements already far outweigh what Houllier did in seven years in the job.

 

Shanks

Bob

Kenny

Joe

Rafa

Regardless of what you think, Houllier is REBUILDING a team that have stagnant for years, couldnot win trophy, couldnot challenge for league. He HAD to dispose of average players like McAteer, Leoomhansen, Ince to raise funds.

It's a myth that Houllier's detractors like you to know that Houllier didnt have 7 years. He had over 5 years. Evans Had 6 years, which is longer than Houllier.

[anny road]

  RaoulD said:

It is obvious that I am not entitled to hold an opinion that differs from others on this forum even if I set out my reasons for my view.

 

I thought the whole purpose of polls/lists such as this is to stimulate debate?

 

I have put forward my view but respect others who see things differently. It seems that I am also in the minority here.

 

I do not disagree with the view that Souness was a dreadful manager who managed to scuttle a ship as soon as it sprung a leak. Equally, Kenny will always have my utmost respect for the way he conducted himself after Hillsborough but I think it is wrong to imply that anyone else in his position would not have done the same.

 

It is true Bob Paisley had completely rebuilt the side by the time he retired and that is one of the reasons why Joe Fagan is so difficult to assess as a manager in his own right. It is also a useful benchmark to assess the other managers by how they left the club at the end of their tenure. There is no dispute from me that the 1987-88 side played some of the best football I have ever seen but the 1990-91 team was a pale shadow of that team. What needed to be addressed was the fact that the average age of the team was closer to 30 with many key players such as Hansen nearing the end of their careers without suitable replacements lined up in the reserves. It is a matter of speculation as to whether Kenny would have addressed this problem before it actually manifested itself but I consider this to be something which I expect a manager of Liverpool to do.

 

I have no doubt that if Dalglish had stayed on as manager in 1991 we would probably not have had to wait for 17 years to see the League Championship return largely because of what followed. Equally, I doubt we would have needed a manager like Houllier if he had stayed.

 

I have not included Rafa in my list because it is far to early to assess his position in the list. If he stays with us for 15 years and wins the league and other trophies several times then he will join Shankly and Paisley and we can argue about the order then.

 

alright la'...dont throw a hissy fit

 

If Kenny had got to the summer of 91 he would have addressed problems that were there

 

SOuness took a torch to it

[Berger]

  anny road said:

alright la'...dont throw a hissy fit

 

If Kenny had got to the summer of 91 he would have addressed problems that were there

 

SOuness took a torch to it

No argument. I think had Dalglish stayed on, we would still be champions and we wouldnt have spent so much money after he left.