MFletcher

We've improved in the second half of the season, but it was a starting point of 25 points from 19 games (the exact same as Hodgson) so improving was pretty much the absolute minimum that could be expected at that point. That screenshot above also demonstrates that despite our improvement, we'd still only be sixth if the season started after we'd signed Sturridge. So whilst people are willing to cite progress, I think it's clear enough that the progress we've had is a) being overstated and b) about the minimum that could have been accepted given the far from good enough return over the first nineteen games.

Rodgers has made a few statements which have had more than an element of bulls*** about them.

Not even in the average cup next year. Probably for the best, wouldn't want a trophy to get in the way of winning.

We should have nine more points in the league this year than we did last year after Sunday. However, we clearly underperformed in the league last year to the extent the manager got the sack so I'm not really of a mindset which says that nine more points and one higher place after tens of millions of investment represents genuine "progress".

I'm really not.

It's not really. It's not even half a season. Kenny did it and it fell away. We have to buy sensibly in the summer and make sure it doesn't happen again.

No, we really wouldn't.

If he was as good as Marco van Basten we wouldn't be having the discussion.

I'm not sure when you appointed yourself the resident forum policeman, but you'd probably be best winding it in a bit.

If anything your quotes demonstrate that I've been entirely consistent in what I've said about him, which makes a welcome change from moving my opinion about to suit the latest game.

We're four months in, it's a bit early to be making definitive statements given we've had f*** all to play for since February.

There have been instances where he has shot from stupid angles or refused to pass the ball to someone better placed. He does it too often to write it off, so with better coaching and more experience you would hope he'll stop doing it and do the right thing more often. I continue to harbour doubts. Not about the level of his talent or general ability on the pitch, but entirely around his awareness and fooballing intelligence. That doesn't mean I think he's s***. It means I have a concern that he might not be the player he could be if he doesn't eradicate these aspects from his game.

The problem with Sturridge being greedy isn't games like today. When we're winning and he ends up scoring three, no-one gives a s***. It's when it's 0-0 in the derby and he doesn't pass the ball for someone to roll in. It's when he gets through on a goal in a game we need to win and he doesn't pass to someone better placed and instead shoots from a s*** angle. His movement is excellent, and he's quick as f*** so he'll get more opportunities than most players in the league assuming the service is continually good (and with Coutinho it has been generally excellent). It's up to him to move to the next level. The raw talent is there, but unless he develops significantly more awareness of what's around him then he'll always annoy the f*** out of everyone and those doubts will remain at the back of the mind. What he did for Henderson's first at Newcastle is the sort of thing he has to do far more whenever he recognises that someone is far better placed to put it into the net.

Chelsea didn't really have players in the Mascherano/Alonso mould to play the 4-2-3-1 in the way he'd have liked them to, especially if he's going to play all three of Hazard/Oscar/Mata in front of them. Had he stayed this summer, you suspect he'd have tried to buy someone who isn't s*** to replace Mikel as a proper defensive shield.

Two pretty dire CL campaigns as well given the money available. Given the players and the money invested, it's a poor return across all the competitions over the last three years.

Rafa's record in Europe since 2004: 2004: Won UEFA Cup 2005: Won European Cup 2006: EC Last 16 2007: EC Final 2008: EC Semi-final 2009: EC Quarter-final 2010: UEFA Cup Semi-Final 2011: Not there a full season 2012: Not in work 2013: UEFA Cup Final In eight seasons where he has actually had a team for the latter stages, he's reached six semi-finals and four finals. He's done it with three different teams as well.

We weren't doing it all the time, but we did move him about at times when we really shouldn't be touching the one thing that's actually worked consistently well this year i.e. Suarez up top through the middle.

I've no objection with him being in the team, but I do object to moving Suarez to the wing to accommodate him. The latter is too good to be moved around to accommodate anyone else in the side and yet we were doing this earlier in the season.

Spreadsheets are f***ing brilliant, like.

Sturridge is dense. Give him no time to make a decision and he's alright. Give him anything resembling time and space and he hesitates and then trusts in what he seems to think is his Maradona-esque ability to beat a player. When you take away his movement and his somewhat-infrequent ability to hit a ball cleanly, there's not that much in his locker. His best skill is his movement, which is generally excellent. We need to coach him properly into making sure he passes the f***ing ball whenever he gets into a position and can't score himself. At United this year, he shot from about six inches away from the touchline between the edge of the box and the six yard box. You have to wonder why he's still doing things like that after this many years' worth of playing. It's akin to booting the ball straight out of play for a goal kick.

Results generally change opinions. I've done a spreadsheet, as you do, for the last five years. When you look at Rafa's last year, Kenny's last year and this year, we've just gone almost nowhere in three years. Those two seasons under Rafa and Kenny were deemed sufficient to justify a sacking. Both managers have pedigree. Both managers had cup runs in those years. We've scored a lot more goals away from home this year that we did in either of those two seasons, which is a positive. Our goal difference is a lot better than last year, but broadly consistent with Rafa's last year. Last year's home form was rubbish, but we're still only four points up on it although we've QPR to play so let's say seven points up. We'd need to beat QPR just to win half our league matches at Anfield. We won 13 from 19 in Rafa's last season. We only won six last year, only progressing insofar as improving two draws into wins. We've also conceded more goals this year than in either of those two seasons. We have the second most clean sheets in the league this year (15), but it was 12 under Kenny last year and 17 in Rafa's last year. Basically the only positive is the goals scored. We didn't beat anyone by a four goal margin in the league last year. In Rafa's last year, we beat Stoke (4-0), Burnley (4-0), Hull (6-1), Burnley (0-4). This year, we've had five big wins (Fulham 4-0, Norwich 5-0, Swansea 5-0, Wigan 4-0, Newcastle 6-0). That's our entire goal difference in five games. Which is ace for those games and for the goal difference but - and this seems a slightly stupid point to make but I think it's relevant - those five games mask a lot of problems across the board. By beating a s*** team into the ground once every five or six weeks, it helps to hide the fact we can't put a run together, are continually found out in defence and we all come away from those games thinking "if we play like that next week...". Then we don't and we're all pissed off. We need to win our last two games just to meet the points return in Rafa's last year. It's just been a s*** season all in all, and when you look at it closer there's really no serious tangible progress beyond putting a few poor quality teams to the sword whenever the game is won. That's an improvement, but hardly sufficiently fundamental to justify "buying into" what we're trying to do here.

Agree, especially with £40M net in transfer fees, although this is probably closer to £30M if you chuck in wage considerations. It's about narrative. If we weren't trying to play "passing football", the knives would be out. As it is, because we're trying to play "passing football" and have hammered a few s*** teams near the bottom along the way the narrative is "progress" and "needs time to implement his ideas".If we were throwing it long, there wouldn't be a dissenting voice about him going. Playing "passing football" gets you leeway, even if results are crap.

See this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/results Is there any way of getting the BBC equivalent for last year or the years before it? I'm sure I've seen it before.

We're beating s***ter teams more often, but we're never going to do anything of consequence if we're incapable of beating a team who are actually any good. We'll get knocked out of cups whenever we come up against a team of worth, and we'll always fall short for the top four because they'll stop us winning any of the genuine "six pointers". Beating the s*** is welcome, but it can't come at the expense of a complete absence to make a dent in the games against teams who won't fall apart trying to keep Suarez in check. Teams who can defend, who can attack as a team, who make it difficult for us are able, under Rodgers, to stop us doing anything. Had we replicated last year's form against the top seven/eight we'd have been fourth.