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What a complete and utter load of s****. I'm past being f****g livid game after game. This feels worse than that Houlier 13 game run without a win. 7 away games and 1 goal, I'm sorry but that's past bad luck, injuries, whatever the f*****g excuse, tonight was pure drivel. We played a team who's had no intention of attacking at all. Don't get me wrong, it can mean it makes it slightly more difficult to create space going forward, but considering we had something like 95% possession, I've never seen so much lack of belief or quality. Pennant and Gonzalez. Dear oh f****g dear. Speedy for all is hard work, looks no better than a fast League 2 player. To be a top footballer, ultimately you have to be more than fast. Like being able to cross the ball. 50% success rate from crosses would be nice, but that was complete and utter s****. Pennant, looks like a 12 year old playing football with men. I can't believe millions of pounds are spent on these players. I play football for a local league side, I'm right footed and can cross the ball better with my left than Gonzalez. Well Gerrard played in the centre and looked f*****g useless compared to Alonso. Just listening to Merson and he is hitting the nail on the head, such a lack of urgency, playing each game as a European match, really slow pace. Can't see us winning the league for a long time and I have to agree. Saying that every playing playing rigidly in their position, EXACTLY what I've been saying for months if you read back at my other posts. It's not the players we've got (apart from 1 or 2) but the attitude. When will we learn, you've got to make movement off the ball, you can't just pass to a player 20 yards away and let him get on with it. You've got to play as a unit, attack in numbers. It's so simple it's f*****g embarassing. Quite simply, this is not good enough for LFC. If any thinks otherwise needs to get the rose tinted glasses wearing head out of the sand.

I'm sorry but who the **** are you? Re-read my post, absolutely f*** all to do with stopping supporting the team. Just making the point that what the club needs right now (and **** knows you manager does tries to do it enough) is to close ranks, siege mentality etc. etc. rather than dwell on another defeat and rip into eachother. There's a big difference between suggesting a siege mentality is good at this point than to actually suggesting supporters don't support the team anymore. When a fan vents his frustration or disagremeent with a player/players/manager/director, has he stopped supporting the them forever, even if they 'drop into the 2nd division'? It think it's you who needs to grow up. Is Ferguson or you and your moronic fans childish for suggesting everyone in the entire f*****g world hates them and is 'against' them?

Have been absolutely gutted and fuming since Sunday, but reading the forum today is f*****g great! Just as I'd hoped, the complete mauling the gutter press has given us has caused people to close ranks, two fingers to the establishment. Things aren't great, but strangely they aren't far from being so. I feel Saturdays game against Boro is now the biggest game of the season to date. An away win would get that f****g monkey off our back big time. Added to that, when you think about it is Boro actually one of the harder away games we have left, how bizarre is that (maybe spurs and newcastle aside). A win at the riverside and getting rid of that hoodoo and I genuinely think the belief will be there that we can win most of our other away games. A really good run until Christmas will keep us in touch (just) but we then really have to start beating the big guns at home. Lot of ifs and buts, but things WILL seem an awful lot better come January if we get a win this weekend. But if we don't............ F*ck 'em all - bring it on.

Poor Stevie G - discuss...........

Good lord........

Please read my post above. Says it all really. Let the pounding begin (oh, it has) and bring on the vultures. For what it's worth, I agree that serious questions need to be asked. Yet another spineless, gutless capitulation. Managers and players alike should hang their heads in shame. Can some answer one mother *****g question. Why are we the most static team the world has ever seen. We've patented a variation on pass and move. Its just called 'Pass'. I've lost count of the number of times I've posted about having such a static gameplay so I won't go into detail again here, but basically its the most obvious thing in the world why we just can't score. Whenever we have the ball, every player receives the ball in 'his' position. Everyone else stays in 'his' position and the player with the ball has nobody within 20 yards and is expected to do it by themselves. thats why our moves break down so often as every pass has to be inch perfect and we so often have to go backwards. I'm livid, I'm f****g fuming, I'm embaressed.

I feel today is a watershed. It has massive importance as far as this season goes. Obviously the 3 points will go a long way to giving us that hope and belief we need. But I really fear the knock-on effect a loss will have depending on how we go about the game. While it's true defeat will rule us well and truly out of the title race, it's the manner of a defeat that I feel is the real significance. Go down fighting, taking the game to Arsenal and while we might smart for a bit, I feel we'll have enough about us to recover and get something from the season. But, god forbid, we approach the game like the Utd game and end up with a similar result, we'll find ourselves back to square one as we were after that game but with even more pressure, criticism and lack of self belief mounting. Remember how low everyone felt after that game, everyone had their say, none more so than the fans. But a repeat of that would just leave its mark I feel. We simply can't afford, with the squad of players we've got, to put on another show of fear and caution. I'm not suggesting for a minute that it'll be anything that disastrous that people will call for Rafa's head (some idiots might), but there'll be way too many question marks circling the management, players and fans, not to mention the press having a field day. Although it didn't last too long, we were in 'mini turmoil' after the Utd defeat with accusations and rumours about the boss, skipper, board flying around, with the eventual sacking of one of the directors (ironically acting as catalyst for a siege mentality). But we just can't afford to go through that again. A spineless showing leaving us still with no aways wins, 1 away point, will be damaging. For that reason alone, I'd rather see us give them f*****g hell for 90 minutes even if we concede more than we score. The players could at least hold their heads high and give us room to move on, as gutting as it would be for a while. And you never know, with a team full of great talent, with that attitide we might just do 'em.

I feel today is a watershed. It has massive importance as far as this season goes. Obviously the 3 points will go a long way to giving us that hope and belief we need. But I really fear the knock-on effect a loss will have depending on how we go about the game. While it's true defeat will rule us well and truly out of the title race, it's the manner of a defeat that I feel is the real significance. Go down fighting, taking the game to Arsenal and while we might smart for a bit, I feel we'll have enough about us to recover and get something from the season. But, god forbid, we approach the game like the Utd game and end up with a similar result, we'll find ourselves back to square one as we were after that game but with even more pressure, criticism and lack of self belief mounting. Remember how low everyone felt after that game, everyone had their say, none more so than the fans. But a repeat of that would just leave its mark I feel. We simply can't afford, with the squad of players we've got, to put on another show of fear and caution. I'm not suggesting for a minute that it'll be anything that disastrous that people will call for Rafa's head (some idiots might), but there'll be way too many question marks circling the management, players and fans, not to mention the press having a field day. Although it didn't last too long, we were in 'mini turmoil' after the Utd defeat with accusations and rumours about the boss, skipper, board flying around, with the eventual sacking of one of the directors (ironically acting as catalyst for a siege mentality). But we just can't afford to go through that again. A spineless showing leaving us still with no aways wins, 1 away point, will be damaging. For that reason alone, I'd rather see us give them f*****g hell for 90 minutes even if we concede more than we score. The players could at least hold their heads high and give us room to move on, as gutting as it would be for a while. And you never know, with a team full of great talent, with that attitide we might just do 'em.

if we can hold our nerve and pick up a point at the a*** next week, therefore keeping our momentum and confidence, I genuinely think we can (neh should) win 5 or 6 of the next 7 games. And as can be seen from Arsenal and Chelsea today, other teams can and will drop points this season. All ifs and buts as usual, but we can get ourselves right back in this if we play our cards right...... Utds fixtures up to new year..... Blackburn v Man Utd Sheff Utd v Man Utd Man Utd v Chelsea Man Utd v Everton Middlesbrough v Man Utd Man Utd v Man City West Ham v Man Utd Aston Villa v Man Utd Man Utd v Wigan Man Utd v Reading

Not bad, not bad at all. If we can put a good run together, we could be right back in the mix come the New Year. If any can be arsed to put the mancs/chelsea's fixtures in, would make good reading. Liverpool v Reading - Barclays Premiership Arsenal v Liverpool - Barclays Premiership Middlesbrough v Liverpool - Barclays Premiership Liverpool v Man City - Barclays Premiership Liverpool v Portsmouth - Barclays Premiership Wigan v Liverpool - Barclays Premiership Liverpool v Fulham - Barclays Premiership Charlton v Liverpool - Barclays Premiership Liverpool v Watford - Barclays Premiership Blackburn v Liverpool - Barclays Premiership Tottenham v Liverpool - Barclays Premiership

rickyjohn@mailshack.com if you could be so kind!

Very true. Most of them need their a*** kicking. Having just read and listened to Benetiz, I walked away even more baffled and bemused. Apparently we played well, worked hard and controlled the game. It's like listening to f*****g Houllier all over again. I just hope that what he says to the players is different to what he says to the media, but just once, it would be nice to hear a Liverpool manager come out and give the fans a bit of honesty. Today was completely embarassing, I can't even say Utd played tha well. Can we just hear a manager come out and say it wasn't good enough, do fans at least deserve that.

Where do I start? Despite feeling furious and boiling inside, I'm trying to keep this constructive/honest and making points I've been feeling this season (and the end of last season). 1. Sami - been a rock for us since he joined, but looks geriatric-like. Passing now even worse than it used to be. NEVER finds a man with a forward ball and constantly caught out of position. 2. JC - fans favourite, but lets be honest, looks the player he looked 3-4 years ago - off the pace, sluggish and lacking in quality. 3. Alonso and Garcia - sorry to say this, especially to the die hard Xabi fans, but both are luxury players we can't afford to play at present. Xabi's main contribution is his passing, he offers little going forward or defensively, but right now he can't even pass for toffee and is only contributing to slowing our already pedestrian game down. How Luis was left on the pitch today was beyond me - like Alonso, gave possession away 80-90% of the time he had it. 4. I love Momo, but please lets not all go OTT and make him out to be the next Vierra, he's a LONG way from that, but he will get better. But again, gives possession away as much as he wins it. 5. Does Riise look unfit, or really off the pace? Where the Riise belting up and down the left we know? Notice the pattern here, thats half the team who are lacking in quality/sharpness for various reasons. Gerrard isn't excluded from criticism, but its time to go back to basics, Momo and Gerrard in the middle. Speedy left, Pennant right. Looks balanced, give them a few games run together. When Agger is fit, play him and Carragher, but I hate to say, unless Palletta comes good this season we are looking at needing a new quality centre half. Now the most worrying factor of all - our movement/style of play. It's been a problem on and off for a few years IMO. We are just so static as a team. How often to you see players running off the ball, making angles, creating space, pulling teams out of position, playing neat triangles etc? Hardly ever. Everything is very methidical, players stood in their position waiting for the ball, so when they get it, its got to go straight back to where is came from. No wonder we are finding it almost impossible to score, as its got to be the perfect passage of play. Just watch Arsenal, Utd and to a lesser extend Chelses(they have go the quality to play through teams and grind every result out). Theres so much interplay and running off the ball. I'm sure Rafa is a supreme tactician, but bizzarely, it almost seems like 75% of the team are heavy footed and methodical, and its expected that throwing 1 or 2 players with place in the team will sort it out??!! You need to he a whole team thats mobile and I'm afraid to day we just ain't got it, by a long shot. Very slow back two, the two fulll backs (even Finnan) becoming increasingly immobile over time. Two defensive minded centre midfielders and a centre midfielder at right/left midfield, its no wonder Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch look so isolated. It's frustrating and baffling, but yet again we've gone from a team looking like its on the verge with only a few quality additions required to a team a mile away from what is the most important. There's always next year? How many more f****ng times have we got to say that, and half way through October........

] did you even watch the game tonight??????

Has to be said, not having a good time of it this season. I'm not blaming him solely for tonights defensive shambles, but he looks so out of sorts. I don't know if its not having Sami next to him, but both him and Agger hardly won a header. Every single cross into the box (of which there were far, far too many, we looked very exposed down the left) were chances, partly cos the crosses were so good, but our centre halves were rarely anywhere near them. As I say, Agger has to take some blame too, but I think Jamie has suffered this season, its not the first time he's looked of the pace. And I'm very worried we haven't got a true ball winner in the air without Sami in the team.

can someone please send to rickyjohn@mailshack.com many thanks

This is not a major moan, thought I'd post this win lose or draw. Postives first - Looked fairly comfortable for periods Clean sheet Agger played well Kuyt Some players 'rested' for Sunday Not a bad result Now the little whinge. The game was there for the taking against a poor side. When you think we were fairly comfortable for long periods, that was on top of what I thought was an awfull midfield performance. Momo and Zenden give the ball away far too often in the middle. I know Rafa was thinking about Sunday, but taking Momo off and leaving Zenden on was risky, thought we carried Bolo all second half as he was neither breaking up tackles or going forward and they got into the game at that point. Forgot he was playing for the most part. After a bright start, Pennant went downhill fast and got caught in position far too often. Have been very unimpressed by Aurelio so far, think Rafa was on the juice when he described him as a better passer than Xabi Bellamy and Kuyt looked very bright and would have caused havoc with a bit of decent service and support from a decent midfield we left them far too isolated. don't know if this was down to the quality of midfield or overly cautious approach, or both. Probably more the latter, as the introduction of Xabi, Gerrard and later on Gonazalez had little impact. Gerrard and Kuyts long range efforts aside, very dissappointed we didn't put more pressure on their defence. As stated, not too bad a result, bit frustrating as it could have been more, but does anyone else feel sometimes that sometime Rafa is more concerned with the next game than the current one? Apart maybe from West Ham at home, each team selection so far has left us that little bit short. Momo and Zenden in the middle a couple of times, Crouch and Fowler up front (please not again) etc. Its just a bit frustrating, when we were all craving a fast start (remember our season started earlier than most), that we've have taken our foot off the pedal to a degree. Get a settled strong side, with minimal changes, hit the ground running at the start and get some wins in the important first few weeks of the season. The rest would have taken care of itself to a degree. I feel its backfired to a degree where we are now on the backfoot, already worried about falling 8 points behind Chelsea or 11 behind Utd, looking off form and still some big games to play. There's no disaster going on, but we've made things uneccessarily difficult too early in the season imo. Told you it was only a little whinge

Tell you what this place makes me laugh sometimes. People need to calm down, but the only people getting hysterical are the ones who react to a thread like this! Someone has put up a reasonable debate - jist of it is - will we win the league by rotating approx. 1/3 of our team every game. Nobody is saying sack Rafa, noone is saying we've got s*** players. Nobody is denying Rafa has worked miracles in winning the CL and FA cup. In fact, I think we got a strong a squad as I can remember and dont think we are short in any areas. HOWEVER, I think therein our problem lies. We have so much to chose from, I honestly don't think chopping and changing the team every game will win us the league. A cup maybe, but not the league. Call me hysterical blah blah blsh, but thats my opinion. Rafa mad a mistake today, picked a team with no pace and got caught out badly. Schit happens, just learn from it.

Scored for Holland tonight. Spain lost 3-2 to NI! Alonso giving one of the goals away. Oh, and Germany won 13-0!