Chewie

i think for keepers more than any other players the difference at that level is a mental one.... quite a lot of keepers at lower clubs look great cos they are involved quite a bit and have to make a lot of saves. The goals against columns for their teams however is rarely in the top five in the country...in short they hav emore shots to save and more chances to concede.... yet at the top clubs its concentration needed to be out of the game for long periods of time and then to make the right decisions when it really matters...the fact that you haven't been doing much for 10 - 15 minutes doesnt mean you have to get over excited at having something to do...I reckon its the ability to not be doing much and then doing the simple things well without trying to make yourself look spectacular that separates the top goalkeepers from those of similar ability outside of the top teams... quite apart from the keeper debate...how would we have done with that side if they had won it eh....Roy would have been granted a lot more years as manager and the course of history would have been very different.... what if eh....

actually I agree with you Snorky.... don't know if you remember but at the start of that season the great dope....er...dane...was having a Mare at Old Toilet and Ginsoak gave him some time off....meanwhile James was absolutely brilliant.... but come about March time it all reversed...the dane saved everything while L'Eric was knocking em in and James was flapping at everything...he never really recovered after that due to poor form and the expectation that he would have poor form...once a label is attached its hard to shift and Calamity stayed with him for a very long while.... there was just so much potential in that side and so much of the history of our club in the last decade probably turned on their inability to convert genuine quality into medals....

when's Zizou coming...

not necessarily true - David James played many blinders in the last dozen games!!! Chewie

I don't think that wasn't my point.... Chewie

on sky this morning they were showing the 1996/97 season and I just couldn't believe that I couldn't remember how badly we threw the league away that year!! It was a shocker....so many lost points at crucial times even though we were capable of playing some great football... a home loss to freakin' Coventry who were bottom of the league! scum at home when we were 1 point behing em with 4 games to go...and the downfall of David James.... that draw with everscum and fowler's red card (incidentally that gave Owen his run out...) with 4 games to go we had 64 points...by the end of the season we had 68...defeats to scum, Wimbledon and a dreary draw... honestly - that was ours to win and watching it again I almost convinced myself that we were going to do it....then the reality check came home.... the way they do those programmes too is to use actual prematch build up from the time rather than reminiscing and they had a feature on how Evans was rebuilding the Shankly Way...bit by bit...then we dropped points at Villa made me wonder though...how would our club have differed if we won it under Evans...would we have moved on from there? how different things might have been - it'ld have bought him at least another three seasons - would we have improved or would the party boys have wanted more...it's that old chestnut about Fergie...the year they won the FA cup that saved his bacon they were close to going out in the third round until Mark Robins won it for em...Mark Robins eh - quite possibly the most important player in the scum's last 15 year history - if they'ld have lost that it'ld have been another new manager and even more upheaval and we'ld probably have won the league a few more times in the early 90s.... strange footie init...I know there ain't much of a point being made here...but maybe its just that sometimes it just goes for ya and sometimes it doesn't.... but where would that era have taken us if Roy had have won it....we played some blinding football then by the way! Chewie

quite apart from the fact that it would really annoy the heck out of Ginsoak is anybode else not quite hopeful that we actually don't get him and then can use our 6 million elsewhere? Chewie...

we could swap Ciise for Owen and have Owen, Crouch, Kuyt and Bellamy... now that'ld be more to my liking and I'ld back across all competitions for the following Owen - 20 Crouch - 15 Kuyt - 15 Bellamy - 12 that's 62 - a rise of 2 on your previous suggestion!!!! Chewie

don't disagree with any of that - obviously if the price is right we'll buy and sell straight away. Its just that the clubs of players we seem to be linked with - Marseille (Ciise), Malouda's club, Benfica (Simao), Athletico Madrid (Torres), Villa (Kewell, Bellamy) are all clubs that have less financial clout than us but who do seem to be run by owners that drive the selling price high and the buying price low. We're not yet in the financial league of Utd or Chelsea and regardless of how partisan we may be I doubt that on a worldwide scale we demand the same respect from players that makes them demand to come to us once we show a sign of interest. A few more champs league successes may help in this but we seem to buy and sell from clubs just slightly below our rung in the ladder and they have proven to be very tenacious to deal with. That's why I think we may b in for quite a protracted transfer window as we look to buy and sell.... now, from my original post you'll gather that I think 95% of the hype on here recently is simply that - hype, and that G&H have since Feb been working with Rafa on an agreed strategy that includes the academy, the stadium, the scouting system, the budget - all of the evidence seems to point towards these men having a very clear idea of what they are doing and it's my hope that it is a very clear idea that includes retaining the best players (as they have done) and replacing some squad players with better squad players (as I think they may be trying to do at the moment) as well as adding 2-3 serious quality additions to the starting eleven. I've seen little to suggest that this won't happen, but I'm sure the people who pay the cheques at Anfield will be delighted to learn that most clubs think we are struggling financially. I'm not saying this was designed but I'm also saying that I never saw a single statement at the time of the purchase that said Rafa would have 100 mil to spend or even 50 mil. The papers talked up the warchest and the papers have blown it apart before Rafa has even gone into battle. Whether by accident or design I think we'll be happier competing for signatures without everyone thinking they can jump on a gravy train that was never expressly stated to exist in the first place. For what its worth therefore I reckon we're exactly on track with where the main people at the club thought we would be and all talk of initial warchests and being broke are just exaggerations to the contrary...although they'll be happier that the perception of our transfer policy is now very different from only 2-3 months ago. Chewie should really learn how to edit!!

I agree with you there but that's why I think that we're doing an awful lot of work behind the scenes to get deals as far in place as possible before things are completed - for both selling abd buying. Clubs like Villa will be waiting for us to need to sell Kewell and Bellamy and we'll be wanting to avoid that. This is why I think this is actually an incredibly complicated business and why we haven't heard an awful lot. In fact the only thing that we have heard from Rafa apart from after the Champs league has been to affirm teh re-signings of our major players with some add-on like...'this shows the commitment to this club which should help persuade others to join...'blah blah blah. The main priority while we're all waiting for Spain to finish before our pre-season starts was always to get our own house in order. Now we have a real solid base to work from and I hope we try and maximise our position by balancing financial strength with shrewd business ... the main point I think you make is that of the real calculating business plan being to finish regularly in the top four and thus giving the owners a healthy profit without taking the plunge of spending bug to finish on top of that top four. I would share this concern but hopefully the sort of sponsorhip deals that the Mancs have been able to acquire on the back of their success will help us strive to be no.1. - but the point is well made and I think is more or less the attitude that Alan Sugar adopted when in charge of Spurs. Why risk everything on being first past the post when an each way bet every time is a sure thing? Given all of the other serious background noise - no resignation from Rafa, long term contracts for players - including two Spaniards, I'ld say that the business plan includes the sheer drivenness of Rafa to be a winner.... hope I'm guessing along the right lines though Chewie

Well it kind of works like this.... we sell Harry Kewell for say 5 mil to Aston Villa before we have a replacement lined up. Now the very simple people who currently own Malouda and Simao will probably think to themselves...ah, they need a left winger now. Let's make it easier for them by helping this transfer go smoothly. Or they might think...mmm Liverpool are left with no cover for left midfield. That means they really need to buy. Perhaps we'll raise the price a little.... or alternatively, we buy Simao for say 12 mil. All of a sudden Aston Villa are thinking. Liverpool hardly want to pay top wages for both Kewell and Simao. That means they need to sell to get a wage earner off the cash flow. Let's only offer 3 mil and perhaps the most we'll pay is 3.5 - 4. it's really quite complicated. so you don't sell what you can't buy (i.e. a left winger unless you can afford a replacement....) and you don't buy what you can't sell (i.e. a repeat of the Diouff / Diao / Cheyrou / Ciise transfers - paying large fees and ridiculous wages to players that no-one will take off your hands without you incurring a large loss) if this needs broken down any further I'll be happy to draw pictures only kidding...sorry if it wasn't more clear first time round Chewie

I can't believe how mental this place has become in just a couple of weeks...seriously...I know diddly squat about inside info on anything and I'ld say there's less than 10 that do...here's my reading of the whole situation: 1. 4 of our top players had signed long term contracts, including Pepe and Xabi. Neither of these would have signed if there was any chance that the man that brought them here was unhappy; 2. Rafa has mainly used the Spanish market - season ain't over yet and everything across Europe is on ice until these clubs are able to start buying and selling; 3. G&H have come with a business plan. Happy days. Part of that business plan, unless they are idiots, must be success on the pitch. Thankfully they've already tasted the heights of a Champions League final and I'm sure they want to get back there again; 4. All of Europe is waiting for the EPL to do an Abramovich with transfers - the new TV deal, sponsorship etc. With new owners clubs will think that we are top of the food chain just ready to pass the money down. See the first sentence in 3 above - happy days! 5. G&H have repeatedly expressed their utmost respect for Rafa and especially have alluded to his shrewd business sense.... 6. I know nothing about inside info but I do know that in life and business you don't sell what you can't buy and you don't buy what you can't sell. The latter was the big mistake of the Ged reign in 2002. If you sell before you buy you become a forced buyer and it drives the price you have to pay up because your demand is greater. If you buy before you sell you become a forced seller and it drives the price of your own players down because other clubs know you need to get rid. As soon as we buy in a forward or a left winger it will send down the price of Bellamy or Kewell etc. Other clubs know this and so do we. This makes timing very important! 7. Buy Eto, Tevez, Villa, Simao....I'm sure this is very easy once you've negotiated whether or not the player wants to actually move, what contractual implications are there, what agents are involved, what payments are made to external third parties, whether the club wants to sell this player. I'm quite surprised actually that we haven't bought more than 3 world class players already... 8. Like it or loathe it the star player in the rafalution - regardless of what top name we sign - will be Rafa. It's the way the man seems wired. He's a tactician and to him his teams succeed depending on whether or not he out-wits the opposition. It's proven very effective but it's a definite hindrance / help when compared to say a Galatico approach (delete as appropriate depending on your level of exposure to Champ Manager) 9. We've a new stadium on the way that looks amazing according to Kev, we've signed up four of our top players on long term contracts, we don't seem to be negotiating our affairs in public and have said very little whilst the press have said much, and we've a heck of a core unit of players to build a formidable team around...Reina, Carra, Agger, Finnan, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Sissoko, Kuyt, Crouch before we even start to consider more fringe players such as Aurelio, Pennant, Riise, Arbeloa... we know where the needs are and so does Rafa. Let's just wait and see what happens eh before second guessing on a footie forum the financial ins and outs of a multi million pound operation....the problem with forums at this time of the year compared to pubs is that in pubs the rumours are forgotten about the next morning rather than written down in print. Strange things happen when things are written in print - people start believing it regardless of the sauce! For anyone with genuine rumours keep em coming....As for everything else the original poster got it spot on when he raised a load of questions - but that's only because that's all we have. The few that have answers are the few that matter the most and they seem pretty composed about things to me.... YNWA Chewie

when's zizou coming and that bloke from Bayern...Lizarazou...something about the 7/7/7 I heard...

thanks for the clarity Molby...that's how I read your understanding of the situation... but what's your estimation of say the understanding of carra and stevie in this or indeed what Tom and George have said all along about rafa and his shrewd management and then the rafarant the day after the final? Chewie

you see...when you say that added to your earlier comment that Rick Parry is on his way should that be taken as a rhetorical statement in that you know something or is it a genuine question.... part of my instinct...not having any 'knowledge' of the goings on at all...was to wonder the same thing as you're suggesting, but if Gerrard knew all this then why the Rafarant the other day about action and spending big and so on...on the day of the final SKY were running a feature on George and Tom...the one when George started laughing waving notes about...in that interview when asked about budgets and so on their response was very different from the Rafarant...basically they said how unhelpful it was to speak about budgets and that when they speak to Rafa he doesn't speak of budgets. They said he was a very very shrewd and intelligent man who understands that to build a team does not necessarily mean acquiring a load of superstar players...which is 100% spot on (and indeed is not totally an either or...sometimes superstar players can be part of great teams!!) but the inference was that the sort of stuff we heard in the rafarant was not the sort of stuff they had heard before....Now the part when rafa spoke of taking too much time to complete deals was surely aimed at Parry but the part about the money needed could not have been... there's lots of noises but not a lot of clarity, and bascombe's article and the inside info that say Molby is passing on all seems totally out of the blue (to an average dozer like me...) Chewie

thing that gets me is that the graciousness with which the players, carra and stevie, accepted defeat in Athens seemed to suggest that we are on inevitable rise to glory and that Athens was a blip on the way.... stevie's disappointment was in a sense soothed by the realisation that big things are happening and we are going places... for all this to come out suggests that his optimism stated in the raw aftermath of a crushing defeat rather than in a cleverly worded and prepared piece of PR spin was either wrong or that something has happened in the past few days...? timing just seems strange...Athens was hard to take but not impossible because the reaction was not one off doom in that we would never get there again but rather one of optimism in that this is where we belong and where we will be for some considerable time to come...now though it seems senior members of the staff ain't talking and there's lots of major issues going on behind the scenes.... Chewie

in what way Fred...I guess I was meaning that he can break up play the way Momo does without the consequent loss of possession...maybe I'm comparing Masch to Momo's deficencies rather than say to Alonso's quality of distribution... but then elsewhere Rafa sometimes refers to momo as more of a forward influence, as if Alonso and Masch are his deep midfielders and Gerrard and momo his attacking ones....if this Brazilian kid comes in does that mean momo is a more likely departure?.... genuinely, in what way do you think Masch isn't like a better combination of both and how do you think they complement each other / compare with each other? Chewie

i honestly cannot believe I'm even considering this but I'm really wondering if it is in fact time for Alonso to go. It has taken some time to admit to this possibility and it is not a case either of thinking that because we have one player in that automatically means another should go... but unless we dramatically change our attacking options at full-back and wide midfield I am wondering if Alonso is inhibiting our attacking force. Alonso and Sissoko offer very little of an attacking presence through the middle...one breaks up the game but gives the ball away and the other passes it sideways. Mascherano is kind of like both players combined...like Didi he reads and breaks up the game but keeps up the momentum through decent distribution. This allows Gerrard to actually be a driving force through the middle and allows us to play with an additional forward (be it a target man or indeed a creative attacker) I really loved Alonso in his first year and a half but his influence on our ability to attack a game has waned considerably...is there now a case for his possible departure if (and only if) it means we have even more funds to purchase quality attacking players? I only want to raise the debate...as I see many of the arguments for keeping him, namely that if we acquire genuine attacking width then Alonso can feed those players all day long - and there may well be games when we feel that attacking down the flanks is the most appropriate whilst there are games when we need more drive through the middle... I guess I could accept him leaving if his departure significantly assists in the development of the team and if he in fact wishes a new challenge..... I know this post seems a bag of contradictions but that's how I'm feeling at the moment about Xabi...I want him to be the player I thought he was going to become....one of the best midfielders in the world, but at the moment I wonder if his lack of influence alongside a holding midfielder (so favoured by Rafa) is one of the reasons why we are about 20 - 25 goals short... confused Chewie

I agree with this...keeping Masch on would have meant we could continue to control their attacking threat whilst Gerrard, Pennant and Kewell would have had Kuyt and Crouch to target...Alonso offers us a 'passing option' but unfortunately his passes are more sideways and slower to release than a year or two ago...last night we just needed a bit more than that and unfortunately I think taking Masch off was the wrong decision....in much the same way that two years ago having Hamann on allowed us to be more effective going forward - ironically...

things I thought we should have changed last night would have been 1. Subs at the same time 60 minutes - Kewell for Zenden, and Crouch for Alonso - with Alonso and Mascherano in the middle we can dictate play but there is no cutting edge through the middle. Macherano is more than capable of being the holder and Gerrard the driver...with two wide men Crouch and Kuyt should have been given at least 20 minutes to work together 2. If that didn't work then with 10 minutes to go I'ld have went for Bellamy for Finnan.... 3 at the back with Bellamy and Kewell working the left channels....Kuyt and Pennant doubling up on the right and Crouch through the middle... we did ourselves proud last night and showed everything that was good and bad about us...no longer a lucky team that everyone is shocked to see there but we need to be more than just really solid....at least 25 goals is needed next season... Chewie

I logged on to start a thread about how the nerves were building and to ask if anyone else was starting to feel the same.... after the semis I was just so happy and content that we were through and that there was no danger of losing to the mancs...in a sense making the final was all I needed...even the prospect of defeat was one of defeat to a club like Milan and there's no shame in that... ...but now!!! just read an article on UEFA.com about gattuso and gerrard and there's butterflies...starting to feel it and all of a sudden the prospect of just competing isn't enough!!! it's only gonna get worse Chewie

any web link to these ads? Chewie

you're right actually...let's ban all talk about the final, all coincidences about Ken and Deirdre, all mention of lucky socks or pubs....what have I been thinking....if it isn't gonna change the outcome of the game then we really shouldn't bother... wow, its a lot more fun now that I've seen the light Chewie

c'mon the poll on UEFA.com is on who will win the final and at the minute Milan are ahead 58 - 42.... get in for the mighty reds! Chewie http://www.uefa.com/