JRC

We're a big name, a large fan base and, I suspect, a reasonable number of sympathetic non-supporters - but also a side lots of other fans want to see fail - so either way, LFC coverage pulls in punters. Blues**** fans think we always get an easy ride, Arsenal fans think they get harsh treatment at times etc. etc. There are some definite LFC sympathisers in the 4th Estate - Winter, Lawton etc. What does bug me is the hypocrisy that sees the 'Living on past glories' criticism inverted into the 'A club of Liverpool's history shouldn't accept...' one, usually by the very same journalist. I particularly despise those pundits and journalists who preface a (usually vapid, hackneyed and ill-considered) criticism with 'I grew up watching/admiring/following/playing for Liverpool in the 70's and 80's and it makes me sad to see them.. {enter current cliche here}.." - claiming to speak as some kind of supporter, when you just know they are not. BUT - it's no different for MU, a***, Chavs etc. The only thing worse than being talked (written) about is NOT being talked about.

I agree - it is most definitely not a chant sung by the general mass of fans - some small groups maybe, but I can hand on heart say, without being a one-eyed LFC-tinted specs observer, that I have not heard any Munich songs at Anfield (from the comfort of the Main Stand) for 15 years or so - although I was away for the Cup game. I HAVE heard it on the bus before now, so I know it goes on, but even on the bus it was only 4-5 people.

I caught some of Gary Gillespie on Talksport last night, and he seemd to refuse to jump on the bandwagon, although he didn't pretend we were playing well. He admitted he preferred less changes, but that he wasn't a manager, and Rafa has been succesful with rotation, so it's his call. The Sky News tosser, Rhodri whatever, (who said Rafa had been succesful 'only to an extent'), insisted on asking 'fans' (usual phone-in muppets) if Rafa really knew his best 11, like it was some fundamental damnation of him. The Answer, is, like it or not, that Rafa doesn't even accept the concept of an absolute best 11. He has a squad and picks a team for a match, based on form, tactics and condition, and that is the best 11 for that match, as far as he is concerned - rightly or wrongly.

Maybe..but glorifying in the commercial benefits of a tragedy is somewhat macabre and unpleasant - but very Kenyon. There is also some truth that the media in the 60's was very sympathetic to ManU because of the aura of 'what might have been' about the Busby Babes (and because of the number of journos who died in the crash with them), and their subsequent re-birth, under Busby, with the admittedly excellent 67-68 team. That sympathy undoubtedly continued to grant them favourable coverage, esp vis-a-vis LFC, through the 70's and 80's, and contributed to their global fan base growth, despite them being, generally, crap.

If it is offensive to use a tragedy like Munich or Hillsborough to taunt opposition fans - and it is - then 'Where's your famous Munich song' is a prime example, and in itself and on it's own a hypocritical act. On another point, a Marketing Director at Man U (I'd not be surprised for it to have been Kenyon, but it may not have been) once opined how good Munich had been for 'the brand', which is on another level of offensiveness altogether.

That was my point - get a head of steam at home, then a good performance at Arsenal - even if we lose - and it is not inconceivable that we get ourselves on a decent run up to Christmas. Fwiw, I think Villa are flagging a bit now, and due their first defeat. Darkest before the Dawn, and all that.

In the league, 2 at home, Arsenal away, then up to Xmas - Middlesbro (A), City (H), Portsmouth (H), Wigan (A), Fulham(H), Charlton (A), Watford (H). By Christmas, we will have gone some way to redressing the 'hard start to the season' argument. Given a couple at home to start with - where Blackburn excepted, we have been OK - it's not inconceivable for us to have a very good run out of these games - 25 points? 27? - that should see us in a less embarassing position, and set up for a strong run in, and showing some confidence. No guarantees, no claiming we are going to win the league, but potential for a more sanguine Christmas Day, for sure.

'Munich' songs cannot be justified then or now, agreed, but in the ultra-violent context of the 70's - darts into the crowd, pitch invasions, mobbed-up attacks on buses or those being escorted to ther station, and a much easier acceptance of singing about acts of violence - 'You're going home in a f***ing ambulance', 'Aggro' chants etc - then taunts about Munich were *almost* innocent by comparison. Furthermore, I'd say they only started some 15 years after the crash, by a generation for which there was no real emotional significance. I remember my Dad, who revered Edwards, hanging his head and sighing. Whatever we may think, the violence today is nowhere near as bad as in those dark days. And then, Hillsborough happened. Would we still be singing the Munich song if it hadn't? Maybe, maybe not - but maybe we'd be playing football in s***ty, derelict and unsafe stadia, watched only by a rabid underclass behind 70ft high electric fences patrolled by guard dogs with bees in their mouths - that's if football hadn't been closed down by now. Hillsborough DID happen, and we now play and watch in post-Hillsborough times. Football supporters acknowledged some kind of commonality. Munich chants dropped away pretty quickly to my recall, and I have never heard them in any significant mass singing since, certainly at Anfield (haven't watched yesterday's game, probably never will now), although I've seen instances of individuals and small groups of kn*bheads indulging themselves, esp on away buses. That the Mancs sing about Scousers even when we're not playing them amuses me - cheers me, even, that we (and our greater success, of course) are still so central to their psyche and perception of self - but Hillsborough & Munich stuff is a very different kettle of fish.. Are we again seeing a generational shift - Hillsborough being just a poorly defined memory for some, so fair game for songs and offensive gestures? I hope not, and there are now so many outlets for discussion of these things that I don't think anyone today singing about these events can hide behind the argument that they don't realise how offensive these songs/chants/gestures are - ffs, they are apparently designed to be as offensive as possible, it seems to me, sometimes even informed by available info as to how offensive to be (i.e. crushed face gestures) . Whatever, I think the 'moral ground' argument - such as there is one - is not advanced by reference to pre-Hillsborough behaviour as justification/mitigation/explanation of current behaviour. We wouldn't be chilled over the Racist singing of the 70's and 80's coming back, so let's not meakly accept these offensive, degrading and tasteless chants - about the horrific & tragic deaths of young people playing or watching the game we love, remember - amongst our respective sets of fans.

Actually, solidity and consistency is the thing I want most from a RB, not some headless bomb forward wannabe winger. Finnan has deliverd on that basis for 2 seasons now, and is also an effective and productive crosser when he gets forward. However, I would agree that he hasn't been at his usual standard in the past few games - with mistakes that appeared to come from poor decision making, something he is not normally prone to. He could have done better against Campo, but there were other factors in the goal, and it wasn't really a fair contest

In other words - rotation: That 'excellent run last season' you refer to falls slap bang in the middle of the 93 games without the same team in consecutive games that the media have suddenly got so worked up about. Williams has just re-hashed all the usual stuff you could have read in any paper over the past couple of weeks, without any insight or attempt to consider the alternatives so cogently put forward by some here - and then spiced the whole shoddy, cheap mess up with some gratuitous digs at the man who apparently had nothing to do with our CL win, and in fact, is hampering us, causing us to underacheive. Well worth ripping apart, imho.

Isn't there a story - maybe apocryphal - that Williams once gave an excellent review to an album that actually had (in the review copy) a whole side of electronic junk - and he thought it was exciting & experimental? That figures.

Thanks for that. I stopped buying The Observer because of the cr*p written by Wilson and Will Buckley, but had been thinking about relenting. Wilson is without doubt the worst Football corrrespondent writing; completely clueless (not just wrt Liverpool). The Sindy again tomorrow, then....

Especially as the 2nd 'Handball' was in the same piece of action as the first - All other things being equal, they could not have been awarded both!

He fell over precisely because of the surprise element, and the speed and accuracy of the shot. Xabi forced the error, it's not like he just fell over as a misplaced pass or cross came his way.

His last 3 Goals have been from inside his own half - against Birmingham, he was virtually on our Goal Line.....

There have been training ground and press stories that Agger is only too happy to mix it. He gave Ameobi as good as he was given last night, and never backed down, which was good to see - it was a good old-fashioned physical contest, with no moaning and no Yellows.

Couldn't disagree more. I can only recall 2-3 misplaced/misdirected passes all game from Xabi, and he was on the ball an awful lot. Although, as was noted earlier, he seemed much more prepared to take chances - less turning to space and taking a simple option, less phased by the close presence of a defender or tackler. The passes he did make all had that simple confidence about them - pace, direction, selection - that only Xabi on top form shows. He had a quiet 15-20 mins before he scored (and how good was the tackle to gain posession as well), but otherwise I thought he looked back to his very best.

From the Post Article - It is also likely that the NWDA will want to determine the attitude of a new owner towards sharing a stadium with Everton FC. They just won't let it lie (NWDA AND the Daily Post). Or is that, from what I'm reading, a nod in the direction of favouring Morgan?

Dear God, more uncredited 'sources' at NWDA being negative getting reported in the Post. It's like Groundhog Day. How accurate is this report? As accurate as the capacity (down 6,000) and cost (up £20M) compared with figures published/made up only a week ago.

He was brought over earlier than planned as Stevie was injured, that's true. Wasn't there also a suggestion of him being bought as a fellow Senegalese to allow Diuof to settle better - a pretty expensive minder, that's for sure.

I disagree, and it seems to me that DannyD's explanation as to why he is writing this now is that the Everton argument about how their plight was directly due to Heysel, whilst easily dismissed and ignored a bitter ranting for the most part, has recently been granted a spurious credence - especially following the 4th place vs CL Winners debate last year - to the extent that non-bitters now appear to accept the premise as axiomatic. The blog is generally a reasonable and reasoned debunking of that. Pointing out the ludicrous fallacies in the bitter's position doesn't deny the moral argument - People dying is more significant than a Football Club subsequently being crap - but he should take care - and I believe he does - not to lose that perspective.

Their argument is more that WE should have been banned, but not them - and all other things being equal, we wouldn't have been in the 85-6 European Cup anyway. Juventus were though, and had a significantly stronger claim to being potential winners - but they didn't even reach the final. There is little reason to suggest Everton would have won in 86.

Does he? I read it that he will act as the host to Jose when they are at Anfield, and 'offer him the best' - not wait for Jose to come to him.

A great, well-rersearched and presented read. I think the 'Murderers' chanters would never read/accept/understand this, but there is a whole apparently reasonable revisionist position ('No Fault Of Their Own') that HAS to be countered. I realised that there was more to come, and appreciated the detail and research DannyD had already done, so assumed some - probably all - of my points would get covered, so it was a mixture of getting my long-held opinions aired first AND perhaps adding some more that DannyD can use if I mentioned anything he wasn't going to - I particularly like the fact about subsequent prompt Relegation for the other English Winners. The detail on the FA/UEFA positions etc is excellent, and new to me, although I was well aware at the time of the fact that it was English Football in general that was on trial - if Heysel hadn't happened, then another incident would have been the one that broke the camel's back. What I would have avoided is the Urchins stuff - not that it isn't true, but it's a bit close to 'lovable cheeky scouser' territory, which we sometimes get accused of - just that we also had some nasty hard b*stards; I know because, attending games in London from a College location, I had to go unidentified, so just as often got chased by our own. I recall tales (by fellow Reds) of a vicious crew called the Anny Road Apaches (whilst acknowledging the mythological nature of much of these tales), and oppo fans stories of Stanley usage being not too far from the truth. I would agree though, that around town at the time, it was the Bluenoses who had - and enjoyed, and took pride in, and boasted about - the reputation for having 'soldiers' and well-organised Firms.

Absolutely. That was clearly one of the things Rafa picked up from his first season, and started to put right last year with Momo and re-deploying Xabi to an extent. (He doesn't get pushed around, but he doesn't really give it out). Even Crouch was bought for similar reasons, albeit more in a football/difficult to play aginst way than for being hard in a fight. If anything, Stevie is too hot-headed to do that kind of stuff - see the Everton game. The best hard men/enforcers have always been more calculating - Smith, Case, Souness, Whelan. Let's not get too sentimental or idealistic about this. Shankly and Paisley thought the same. Rafa will do what needs to be done, and 'winning the right to play' is as true today as ever.