kop205

Each to their own then. I don't find it funny. I never will, regardless of what they do. I can understand people snapping on Sunday and giving it back then, but stuff like this I just find bizarre and anyone who partakes in it has, in my opinion, lost any right to be offended by Heysel/Hillsborough gags. If you are ok with that then fair enough, at least you are consistent. Anyway, like I said, it has all been well and truly gone over in the 'Munich songs' thread.

Saying he was 'one of our better players last season' is something I've taken issue with in the past. I suppose it depends on what exactly you understand the claim to mean. I'd say that the following all undoubtedly made greater contributions than Kewell: Gerrard Carra Sami Reina Finnan JAR Alonso Momo Crouch Garcia You could argue a case for Didi, and possibly even Cisse given his final goals return. You could still argue that out of a squad of 25 that does make him one of our 'better players' but I'd be looking for a bit more personally. The other points I would agree with, but I think you exaggerate the extent to which we are missing Kewell.

Can we look forward to you cracking the Muni gag every time you mention the Mancs from now on? Because all it achieves is making you look as witty and intelligent as those who insist on calling us 'Murderers'. Anyway, that has been thoroughly disucssed in another thread. Back on topic, that pic posted by ojkd is the cup that I held when it came into my workplace i.e. it didn't have a full list of winners on it.

You sure about that? The one we won in Istanbul actually came into my place of work in about Feb or March and I got to hold it. I'm almost certain it only had the names of those who've won it since Milan kept the previous one. Either way, what does it f***ing matter. We've still won it three times more than them.

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I don't always see eye to eye with him but I honestly can't recall him 'glorifying violence'. He is probably more tolerant than me of the reasons why it happens, but I don't think he glorifies it. Not that he needs me to stick up for him! And I've no idea what the relevance of your 'football fan rather than Liverpool fan' comment is. I don't consider myself a 'football fan' at all - I rarely watch other teams on the TV, apart from during the World Cup when I try to catch a few games. Liverpool is my first, last everything (as Barry White would say) when it comes to football. I'm incredibly tribal - but I still manage to draw the line way short of violence or Munich songs, as do the vast majority of those who are every bit as tribal as me. You are barking up the wrong tree if you think that the problem lies in the 'Liverpool first, everything else nowhere' attitude. Maybe that isn't what you think, but it is the only way your post makes sense to me.

That 'falling attendances' chart is possibly the saddest thing I've ever seen posted on here. Oh no - we are getting a whole 170 fans fewer on average this season. Panic everybody, we are in crisis. Almost as good as his post in the Munich thread the other day.

Share a season ticket so probably get to just over half of all home league games. Go to all home cup games in any competition. Normally manage a couple of aways each season.

Regular as clockwork. Who says he isn't reliable? Shankly had it right - injured players don't exist.

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I understand what you meant and I agree with you. Official complaints/raising things publically can, at times, have the desired effect and even if there is no exact precedent about it working with football chanting, in this country (his list of qualifying statements was getting longer and longer) that doesn't mean that it isn't worth giving it a go - providing of course that people actually want to try and stop this kind of stuff. Not saying that it would definitely work, just that we are at the point where it is worth a go.

Nice sentiments, worth remembering. Keep the faith boys and girls.

Maybe they don't, but I certainly give a s**** about the fact that they have made it inevitable that I will have to listen more Hillsborough/Heysel next time I go to a Liverpool-Utd game or happen to switch on the TV and those t***s are playing - all because, in their minds, 'The scousers were giving it the Munich stuff on Sunday'. And judging by the posts of at least some who were there on Sunday and responded they do seem to give a s*** about having lost a bit of dignity. Bit of an old-fashioned concept of course dignity, and hard to measure, but still a worthwhile one. In any case, whether they give a s*** about it or not isn't the point - they just lose any right to moan about anything the mancs sing. Not passing judgement on them - I may well have done the same - just calling it as I see it. Disagree that it has nothing to do with snapping because as soon as people do that it adds fule to the fire of the other side and makes an escalation of things more likely. I'm not passing judgement on those who snapped - I've already said that there is no comparison 'morally speaking' between them and those who actually delight in this stuff, and I've also admitted I may have done the same - but their actions still have repurcusions.

Likewise. If they sing Heysel/Hillsborough stuff than I want the right to be pissed off. I'd lose that right if I retaliated but I couldn't trust myself not to. I understand why people snapped but I still feel that they've now lost something there.

And I don't recall anyone saying that you do agree with them. What I DO recall is you saying that those chants make certain games so good to go to. It was that, and your confident assertion that anyone who disagrees with you is part of the 'SKY brigade', that was rightly being greeted with ridicule. Absolutely - though sadly the same could be said about the singing of Munich songs in the first place. Good old fashioned schadenfreude being taken to its conclusion. I suppose it comes down to to the individual to decide whether they just give in to the worse aspects of human nature and become part of the problem, or try to take a step back. I must admit, when hearing '..and nobody died' being sung the other day, part of me wanted to take revenge and shout out 'apart from your f***ing team'. I didn't, but it was a lot easier given that I was in the pub and even having the thought worried me. To be honest, I'm probably with those who are reluctant to go to this game now for fear of what I'd do.

I wasn't talking about 'growing out' of the attitude in terms of maturity particularly, more just in terms of drawing a line under it. If you agree that the more people who have this kind of attitude, the worse things will become than the way of taking personal responsibility is to refuse to be part of the problem (I'm not sure that there IS a clear solution to be part of as yet, but there you go).

I agree that the only reason the Munich songs stopped was because of Hillsborough. What I was questioning was the mentality that, instead of just accepting that they DID stop, takes umbrage at the reasons why and uses it as a stick to beat people with. That has contributed to the on-going problems now in my opinion. 'Where's your famous Munich song?' is a Hillsborough song, nothing more, nothing less. I only responded because I think we should be left to get our house in order just as we should leave you to do the same. Generally your posts have been pretty spot on in this thread so I certainly have no issue with you.

I agree about the false friendship b******s, and that the Smith chant is funny. I agree that if you don't care what they sing about us then there is absolutely no inconsistency in singing whatever you like about them. But to be honest I think that is the only defence that cuts any ice - anyone who IS offended by Hillsborough stuff shouldn't be singing Munich stuff back (though again, I think for most people it was a 'snap' reaction rather than anything they relished in or that was pre-meditated). Having said that, I do think there is a need for you to 'grow out' of that attitude a bit because there more there are on either side who think like that, thre worse things will become at this fixture. I'm not saying you should be 'banned from the match' or anything like that, you are clearly a genuine fan - I just find your attitude to this fixture a bit bizarre and worrying in terms of how things will go in the future.

How old are you again? About 18? What the f*** do you know about football pre-SKY? Absoloutely f***ing laughable that you instantly dismiss anyone who hates s*** like this as being one of the 'SKY brigade'. I've more than paid my dues and so have most of the others who have posted on here that the Munich stuff is a load of b******s. There were actually plenty of us pre-SKY who knew that the Munich songs were a pile of s**** - and not people who 'sat in an armchair with a can of beer', but people who were actually out there experiencing it first hand. That isn't moralising - certainly no more than your 'sod the SHY brigade' comment - it is fact. These chants have f*** all to do with simple hatred of another club, they go way beyond that and do nothing to enhance the atmopshere (if we judge it just on levels of pure, genuine hatred, then Istanbul was pretty s*** and even the Chelsea semis haven't been up to much - because the focus was more on supporting and singing about OUR team). I DO think that generally on Sunday people just snapped and I'm not going to judge them harshly even though it saddens me. What I will say though in response to those who were outraged at the suggestion that a few of our fans actually enjoy this s**** - how do you explain the graffiti at Old Trafford last year during the semi? I'd say that was fairly pre-meditated. We DO have a problem here still. Even so, OM taking the moral high ground and telling me that 'if it wasn'f for Hillsborough the chants would never have stopped so you can't whinge about getting it back now' is a joke when he should just be glad that they DID stop for a while instead of moaning about the reasons, and the 'if' card could be played both ways - IF Hillsborough had happened before Munich they would have lapped it up, so there is no moral highground to be had by anyone who sings or condones this stuff. Anyone who sings a Hillsborough song forfeits their right to have ever been offended by Munich stuff - and vice-versa.

And then we'd get the nobheads singing 'Where's your famous Hillsborough songs?' and so it would continue. The only thing that will stop it is people deciding enough is enough but sadly I think there are still too many on both sides who honestly think they have the moral highground on this or actually secretly love it when the other lot sing something sick so they can have a go back. They blame us for 'starting it' ignoring the fact that they'd have the done the same if it had been the other way around. They moaned about the reasons for the Munich songs stopping instead of simply being glad they had. We accuse them of keeping it all going but are only too happy to play into their hands and trot out the songs they are calling for.

What is your point? I asked how those chants being heard was a 'good thing', not why were people singing them. Do you not think the people doing that have been brought up on stories of / heard for themselves plenty of times the old Munich songs? Don't you think that is exactly how they justify their pathetic actions? If you think they are wrong/sick/pathetic to do that, then there is no case that can be made to defend our fans who responded. If you argue that we were 'just retaliating' then they can argue that too - albeit from a 'historical persepctive'. Either way, regardless of who 'started it' - they will always say it was initially us, we will always say they are the ones who continue it - there is something hugely ironic, or moronic even, about using Munich songs as the method of registering your disgust at their Hillsborough/Heysel songs. And I say that as someone who was personally affected by Hillsborough (albeit not to the extent of ebing bereaved, though it was close) and who was has seen first hand the vile stuff that their fans are capable of at Old Trafford. Nobody comes out of it looking any better than anyone else, but given as Liverpool and not Manchester United are my concern I'll leave them to put their own house order, or not - whatever they choose to do. I'll focus on things from a Liverpool persepctive and I just wish to God that we would draw a line under it now and not respond. What earthly purpose does it serve to chant back at them about Munich? I'll no doubt get absolutely slated for this post and I know that there are those who feel that, in the heat of the moment, a Munich chant is the appropriate response to a Hillsborough one because the w*****s goading us think we won't dare respond and so we call their bluff (although surely they KNOW some will respond and that is why they do it). I just fail to see how such chants being heard on live TV is a 'good thing', which was the original premise of this thread. If it was going to open up an honest debate about the faults on both sides then maybe it would be but that isn't going to happen. Obviously all my opinion and I know that loads will disagree so I'm not trying to change and am not looking to start a big debate. My first post was asking a genuine question and was straight away seized upon, so I'll leave it there I think.

As in 'Who's that dying on the runway?' - or do they have some sort of 'ironic' version asking us why we don't sing it anymore? Because I would struggle to see how the 'original' being sung was a 'good thing'. Didn't hear it myself - though I could hear 'we won it twice but nobody died'.

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My bro was at that game in the Roma end. He bought a Roma hat and scarf on the way in as a 'disguise' and was fine!

Surprised there has been no mention of Fowler in technical ability - the other players always speak incredibly highly of his general level of skill.