Shanklyanfield

Great argument................... I'll start another is Ronaldo better than lucas

actually I'd say keane's 5 in 19 is about the same as 6 in 23 and keane's where in the Prem, but keep believing that 6 in 23 in a foreign league s better than 5 in 19 in the Prem. Voronin proved that.... Not!

As I proved before it's all to with net-spend and nothing to do with the manager why we finished so badly! :unsure: If people on here honestly think that our poor perfomances and fniish had nothing to do with Rafa then they really do need to wake up!!

So if selling Keane @ £16M was possibly the best transfer deal in history, where does buying him for £20M fit in then? Where has this Steven Jovetic rumour come from? First I've heard of it and if I'm a bit behind the times I'm sorry!! But he scored 2 in 29 last season and 6 in 23 this season.......... what a signing to replace Keane..............Not!!!!!!!

So in other words you can't counter my arguments! If you can find holes then please find them and let me know! The Mancs definitely had a lower net spend = fact. by about £60M, Arsenal had a lower net-spend = fact by about £25M, Villa's net spend was £10-£20M more than us but managed to gain between 24 points, Spurs net spend in the summer was between £10M-£20M but they managed to gain 35 points on us!!! I'd love to hear your arguments about the Mancs not doing much better than us and Chelsea loosing Sheva and Piazzaro made them stronger again

For Some reason I can't quote your response, so I'll do my best in below: United: Well for 1 they finished a point off the top of the league having lost 2 word class players, could you imagine us this season without Torres and Masch (I won't use gerrard as that would be obvious!)., they also won a Cup (we didn't) and they also done a hell of a lot better than us in the champions league!!! Would you have been unhappy with the Mancs performance this season for us??? Chelsea: So selling Shevchenko and Pizzaro strengthened the squad - LOL top argument there! Personally if we'd have had those 2 players in our SQUAD this season I'd have been happier! So are you saying the change of management made the difference, but we shouldn't get rid of Rafa because we finished 2nd last year but 7th this year and went out of the Champo's League, FA Cup and Carling Cup with a whimper? Arsenal So they had Van-Persie who missed a lot more of the season than Torres! We've got Babel and Kuyt who can play up-front and Benayoun in the 2nd strikers position yet hardly played there all season! If you honestly think Arsenal improved their squad this season, can I have some of what your on!!!! They also had RVP, Bendtner, Arshavin, Walcott and Eduardo the season before apart from Eduardo who didn't play much due to his injurie but hasn't exactly done much this season! Spurs: Zokora crap or not got them £7.5M and most spurs fans liked him! Bent is that crap he finished the season as 3rd top goalscorer with 24 prem goals which is ahead of any Spurs player and only behind Rooney and Drogba but hey.... don't let facts get in the way! Spurs January transfers: In: Jermain Defoe (£15m, Portsmouth), Wilson Palacios (£12m, Wigan), Pascal Chimbonda (£2.5m, Sunderland), (he's crap so we don't count him do we? Carlo Cudicini (free, Chelsea), Robbie Keane (£12m, Liverpool) - who they let go away to Celtic on loan!! So in Jan 2009 - they bought Defoe, Palacios and Keane, yet that team still finished 35 points behind us!! But they also let Keane go out on loan to Celtic for half the season! Vila: The point is the squad and the first 11 compared to ours last season!!! They sold their best player (Barry) and replaced him with Delph who didn't play and Downing cost £12M but didn't play for half the season! Your argument is EVERYONE totally outspent us! They might have done (although Arsenal and the Mancs didn't and neither did Spurs in the summer) but the fact their players they outspent us on doesn't matter???). Liverpool: Rafa chose to buy Aqua who we all knew wasn't fit until October - but then Rafa chose to pick Lucas ahead of him for most of the season until the last 3 or 4 games of the season! Is that down to net-spend as well? Please show me with figures then who apart from City are spending much more than us last summer? City have yes: Villa probably a net spend of £10-£15M to gain 24 points?? Chelsea £18M net spend but don't forget they reduced their wages bill massively - went from 3 points behind to 23 points ahead! United who'd net spend is probably -£60M on ours but finished 1 point off the lead and 22 points above us! Arsenal who's net spend is probably -£30M on ours but finished 12 points ahead of us!! Give it a rest with Net Spend this season was down to poor management and defensive tactics!!

But looking above at my post nobody has exactly majorly outspent us!! In fact United and Chelsea fall way behind us in Net-Spend yet finished well above us this season!

Who has actually outspent us in regards of net-spend this year besides Chelsea, Spurs and possibly Villa? I'd love to see the actual figures. The Mancs never, I don't think Arsenal did either! Just having a quick look at transfers in and out and I'll do it by Last Seasons premier League Finish: Mancs who finished 4 points above us last season@ Players In: Antonio Valencia (Didn't have a great 1st half of the season but played well in the 2nd half of the season). Gabriel Obertan (Has hardly played this season) Michael Owen (Has hardly played this season) Players Out: Cristiano Ronaldo (One of the best players in the world - imagine if we'd have lost Torres. He was that important to them over the past 2 seasons). Carlos Tevez (wasn't so good at united due to lack of games last season but been brilliant at City this season) Looking at the above, the Mancs lost 2 world class players and replaced them with 1 good Premier League Player, 1 Great player on his day but he never played and a player nobody had heard of before he went there). Chelsea who finsihed 3 points behind us last season: Players In: Yuri Zhirkov (Left-back who struggled with injuries for the 1st part of the season and only played a bit-part role in the season) Daniel Sturridge (City Reserve striker who has hardly played). Players Out: Michael Mancienne (Loaned out to Wolves) Andriy Shevchenko (World Class Striker who couldn't quite make it in the Prem but I'd have him in our Squad) Claudio Pizarro (another striker who didn't quite make it in the Prem). So Chelsea didn't exactly strengthen, if anything they made their attacking options weaker! Arsenal finished 14 points behind us last season: Players In: Thomas Vermaelen (Centre Half to replace Toure) Sol Campbell (January) Players Out: Emmanuel Adebayor (Their Main Striker along with Van-Persie) Kolo Toure (Replaced by Vermaelen). So Arsenal weakened their squad as well as their starting 11. Spurs finished 35 points behind us last season. Players In: Peter Crouch (who Rafa Sold) Kyle Naughton (sent back out on loan) Sebastian Bassong Niko Kranjcar Younes Kaboul (January - don't think he played that much) Players Out: Didier Zokora Darren Bent Pascal Chimbonda Kevin-Prince Boateng Jamie O’Hara (Loan) So if anything Spurs weakened their squad from the previous Season. They replaced Bent with Crouch for about the same money! Are those signings alone good enough with the players leaving good enough to make up 35 points? City finished 36 points behind us last season City bought quite a few players and if I'm honest I thought they'd knock Arsenal away from 4th but not finish above us! If anybody wants me to list their in's and out's I will but I think we all know they spent s*** loads Villa finished 24 points behind us last season: Players In: Downing (who couldn't play for half the season) Fabian Delph (hardly played) Habib Beye (don't think he's played much) Stephen Warnock (who Rafa thought wasn't good enough) James Collins Richard Dunne Players Out: Gareth Barry (Best Player Previous Season) Martin Laursen (great defender) Zat Knight (not so great ) Craig Gardener (January) Nicky Shorey (January) So they only replaced two centre backs with 2 centre backs. They also sold arguably their best player from the season before in Barry and replaced him with a youngster who has hardly played. Also they lost 2 players in January and brought no-one in! Liverpool: Players In: Glen Johnson Alberto Aquilani Sotiris Kyrgiakos Maxi Rodriguez (January) Players Out: Xabi Alonso (Rafa made Xabi's decision for him from the season before) Alvaro Arbeloa (What did we get for Arby? £4M?) Sami Hyypia Jermaine Pennant (Who had been on-loan for most of the previous season so doesn't really count). Andriy Voronin (January - Rafa signing who he didn't rate and was on loan for the season before) Andrea Dossena (January - Rafa signing who he didn't rate but would probably have been a decent player to use due to injuries at LB). Now I've actually put all the transfers in black and white from each club for me it makes the 7th finish even worse and this whole net spend argument less substantial. Yes the owners are the biggest problem overall at the Club but for me the biggest problem for finishing 7th this season has been the negative tactics away from home (-2 goal difference), some really bizarre substitutions, the defensive approach to every game regardless of the opposition and the pure reliance on Torres and Gerrard without bringing in a suitable back-up for Torres! If anyone actually thought that all the transfers above would have moved us from 2nd to 7th in a season with all the other teams so far behind us last season then can they let me know the lottery numbers for Friday and Saturday as I could do with a couple of million!

as the original poster I never stated we could have got johnson for nothing! I only stated it was £17M we didn't need to spend on a full-back we didn't need when we had arbeloa!

No he wasn't but it was his team with his players that did. And it was his team and his players with his tactics that over the season meant we finished 7th!!! If you are happy with this, then that's up to you but personally it's not good enough for Liverpool FC. Rafa seems to get all the credit on here for things that go well, but when we go out of the FA Cup, Carling Cup, Champions League with a whimper and have our worst league finish since 1998 then it's not his fault!!! Exactly i go back to the stats away from home - which for a team like Liverpool is absoultely shocking!!! a -2 goal difference!!!

Only sold Alonso - Rafa wanted rid of him the season before last and wanted to replace him with Barry who has been a massive success at City - Not! (Rafa made a rod for his own back with Xabi). Personally I don't think Johnson is any better than Arbeloa! Johnson is poor defensively and the £17M we spent on him could have been put to better use!! Aqualani was fit in October yet he's only started the last few games since the Season was over and Lucas has been picked ahead of him time and time again!

Of course I think Moores is still in charge - Not!!!! Yes the owners have to go but as I've stated before united's squad has been weakened from last season, chelsea have only added a left-back so please explain to me how the owners have made us finish 7th this season 23 points off the top, when we only finished 4 points off top the season before and our squad has roughly stayed the same! Please explain to me how we have fallen so far behind United and Chelsea but we've only sold Alonso (Rafa made a rod for his own back with that one), Arbeloa and Hyppia! Rafa spent £20M on Keane which didn't work out, he spent £7M on dossena which didn't work out, he spent £20M on Aqualani then didn't use him until the season was over, he spent £17M on Johnson who is no better than Arbeloa but cost a lot more than we sold Arbeloa for etc....... is that the fault of the owners or the Manager that bought them??? Is it the owners fault that we've lost away to portsmouth and drew away with hull who've both been relegated?

We did only replace the players we sold - if we replaced them with worse players then that is down to the Manager - we spent as much on Aqua and Johnson as we got for Alonso and Arbeloa. I hate going back to it but united's net spend was -£60M after selling one of the best players in the world but they where still challenging and won a cup (even if it is a mikey mouse cup). Arsenal finished 12 points above us this season after finishing 14 points behind us last season and they've only really signed a centre-half after selling one of their best strikers and defenders - so theoretically Arsenal's squad has been weakened as well. Why was it over-achieving last season when we finished 2nd? because we've been so rubbish this year? We didn't over-achieve last year we finished where we deserved to finish. This year, the same applies - we've finished in 7th the place we deserve to finish. Yes I agree they've spent alot more than us in previous season but we finished above chelsea last season and only 4 points behind united last season. My point is that this whole thing about Rafa having no money to spend in the summer, when you compare it to the teams around us last season they haven't exactly spent a load of money either have they?

Everyone goes on about the fact that Rafa hasn't been given the money to improve the squad. Last season we finished 4 points behind united and 3 points ahead of chelsea!! We sold Alonso and Arbeloa, Hyppia went on a free and rafa replaced them with a £17M Right back - Johnson, a £20M injured midfielder - Aqualani and £1.5M on the Greek. United sold arguably the best player in the world, if not the best he is certainly in the top 3 - Ronaldo for £80M and bought a winger for a couple of million who nobody had ever heard of and has hardly played - Obertan, Valencia from for £17M and signed Owen on a free who has hardly played. Chelsea only bought a left-back for £18M Zhirkov and that's it. So the squads haven't changed that much since last season - if anything uniteds team is weaker than last season - yet they finished 22 points above us and challenging right until the last day of the season. So what has happened from last season? at the end of the day the buck stops with the manager and we should have at least been as good as united this year consider ronaldo left. Do people honestly believe if we had sold Torres we would have done as well as united after they lost Ronaldo? Our away form is - P19 - W5 - D6 - L8 - F18 - A20 - GD-2 all because when we play away from home Rafa put's the team out not to loose instead of going out to win. I'll probably get shot down but for me it's now time for Rafa to go. Thanks for the champo's league, the FA Cup, the champo's league final and finishing 2nd last year but bye-bye!

and the playing staff hasn't changed that much - this season was purely down to s**** negative tactics, the reliance on gerrard and torres and not enough quality around them!

and get Rafa to watch videos of teams playing attacking football all summer so he can stop with these negative tactics against s**** like hull, stoke, portsmouth etc... Could anyone actually see our team with Rafa in charge doing what chelsea have done today to win the league? win 8-0? We would sit back hoping to nick a 1-0 victory for the title. This game just sums up our season - absolute s****!!!

Why hasn't Rafa put the greek or carra up-front for the last 10 mins and just tried something different to actually get a goal?

Why aren't we really going for the win? Villa are loosing yet we seem to be content to draw away at Hull and this has been the problem all season. Rafa always goes out not to loose a game instead of going out to win it!!!!

What has Maxi offered today or even since he's been here? Yet he's a guaranteed starter and he'll play the full 90 today! Aqua will get taken off even though alongside Gerrard he's looked like the only one who knows how to play football and is trying to get forward and score!

This really is poor and we are making a shocking team who most other teams in the prem have destroyed this season... It will be Rafa's usual subs of Aqua and Babel off but I'd rather see maxi and Kuyt who have done absolutely nothing come off for Yossi and Pachecho and make the changes at HALF TIME not of 65 MINUTES!!!

So using that argument we didn't get £30M for Alonso etc............ it's all relevant.

4th means we have more money in the kitty for potential buyers and more money from the new sponsorship deal (which includes qualification for Champo's League etc.. to realise the full potential of the deal).... what does winning the Europa league mean to new investors???

I just can't believe people think that tonight was a good performance and a good use of the squad and subs etc.... If they do it proves how far we have fallen. tonight was s**** beyond belief to watch, it was a poor performance full stop, regardless of the result! it was poor tactics.. full stop. A £20M midfielder sits on the bench while El Zhar comes on to win us a game! If anyone was happy with tonight's performance, subs and tactics then please say they are! Keane was sold on for a £6M loss.... not exactly small after 6 months... but regardless of that he is our joint 2nd most expensive player ever. No mention of Aqualani?

So are you trying to say we didn't loose money on Keane? Yes we did... it was about £6M about £1M that he was here. Regardless of how much we paid for Johnson because they owed us for Crouch..... we still paid £17M for him......FFS ??????????? I didn't what?

No my argument was about what he's done with it!