Epic Swindle

I think Bale saw the leg come out and made a meal of it. Seen them given mind.

It'll be on his CV. Andy Gray getting on his high horse here. I don't think either were pens, though Webb should have booked Bale then.

I think I'd rather just use Gerrard in midfield and bring in a support striker. Joe Cole would be ideal on a free.

Agreed. And that's not going to change even with big investment in the squad unless Rafa starts trusting his players more and isn't just focused on nulifying the opposition until the latter stages of the season. I've just been watching the Man City game from last season when we came from 2 down and the passing, movement, character and desire was light years away from what we're seeing currently. Bar Xabi and Arbeloa it's basically the same group of players.

Exactly, it's about the right player, and have we've seen in the past that constantly throwing big money at more basic problems doesn't always guarantee success. There does need to be serious investment in the team if we want to dominate in the long term, but if I'm honest I just don't think Rafa is the right man to spend it unless he changes his approach. I don't want to see attractive football, but with the quality we have when we are more positive not many teams can live with us, which is what I think frustrates fans the most. To be fair, it's also about leadership from top to bottom, and unfortunately we're owned by people whose sole motivation is greed and coporate perks. I'm not sure of the exact figures but I'd agree that those are the type of players we should be boosting the quality of the squad with.

I doubt there's many, if any, clubs who can afford to bring in 4 or 5 really top class players. If he means we need better squad players then yes, but they're always going to be hit and miss. While more quality is essential, it's our approach that needs sorting out first, and that's been the case for a while. If this current team played with a bit more swagger and intensity there's no way we'd be in this position.

Superb penalty to win that game.

High standards?

Ignoring the concerns over his methods and approach, don't you need to have been succesful to start ripping up an expensively assembled squad and rebuild? In the past couple of seasons we've brought in the likes of Keane, Dossena and Aqualini for upwards of 50 million quid, two of those have already gone without barely featuring, and the most recent one can't even get a game. A manager with a philosophy like Rafa is constantly rebuilding anyway, hence the revolving door of players to suit his tactical demands.

I think we've gone way past the blip stage. The major doubts about his mentality and approach still remain after so long in the job, and that's not going to change even with major investment. Last season's finish masked a lot of weak, negative performances, and we were hearing a lot of the same arguments we're hearing now as we gradually let slip of top spot post xmas. We either accept that Rafa is the best we can hope for under the current circumstances and stick with him, or go for some fresh ideas and inspiration. Personally I'd go for the latter as for all the financial limitations, I think with we're underachieving with this squad, mainly down to Rafa's methods, and I don't think he can turn it around without another rebuilding job.

It's pointless singling out individual players, and Gerrard more than anyone deserves to be cut some slack for what has been a messy, disjointed season for everyone. The manager picks the team, sets the tactics, approach and mentality of the side and it's been obvious for a while that this system does not work with two defensive minded midfielders, yet he's blundered on anyway. The strange thing is against Wigan he decided to play Gerrard further back and go with two strikers, which he just wouldn't do when Torres was out, even though we were crying out for a change of shape and more attacking options.

Jose is a great manager but he's a walking circus and the media intrusion is unbearable at times, though he tends to use it to create a siege mentality. I think he'd come but we'll go for someone a bit safer, and cheaper.

Agreed. That link up between the two was the best bit of football we've seen in recent months, and you could see Torres was far more effective with a pacy player buzzing around him and making space. Drop Gerrard back into midfield alongside Masch and go for it. We can dream.

It's also about tempo. We're so ponderous in posession, especially in midfield, that teams can defend higher up the pitch and in turn isolate our attacking players. Arsenal, for example, don't have blistering pace in all positions, but they're confident and move the ball quickly.

I don't think anyone is saying he was brilliant tonight, and I don't believe he's the answer long term, he just gave us something different from the usual ponderous attacking play we've become used to recently and it was good to see a bit of pace and direct running on the flank. He's always going to give the ball away and fall over his own shadow, but he'll also produce the odd moment of quality that can win a game, which is something we badly need, even if it's at the expense of solidity. I thought he worked hard tonight too and helped out defensively, which wasn't rewarded by Rafa, who obviously already had a plan to take him off regardless of how he was playing. Graham Taylor made a decent point in his commentary that Rafa sometimes does too much and needs to step back every now and then and just trust his players instead of trying to control every aspect of the match.

He's a good lad and will stay loyal to Rafa but even he must have his doubts about our overall approach. Agree on your last point though. So many times he's left to fight for scraps in a war of atrition instead of getting some basic support and service. We must be the least athletic team in the game, everything we do is slow and controlled.

It's hard to say really. I think anyone with a braver approach would get more out of this team currently. It's a disjointed mess. Taking off Babel instead of Kuyt tonight for example just summed up Rafa's mentality and approach to the game, and I doubt that would change with better players at his disposal. For once we had a wide player running at people with pace and linking up with Torres and yet he had to change it.

Ordinarily that wouldn't have been the worst result in the world but given our current state I just can't see us turning them over at Anfield. The biggest issue for me is the two non creative defensive midfielders. They keep it tight but nulify any sort of attacking intent. Add in two slow, non creative wide players and it's no wonder Torres and Gerrard look pissed off.

Babel Masch Torres

Torres looks totally dejected. The hottest striker in football forced to chase shadows all game and feed off scraps and knock downs. We should be giving a striker of that quality plenty of support.

Paul Ince used to shout his head off and he was abysmal. I didn't see him shout at anyone tonight anyway, even though they probably deserved it. The problem is he's dipped below his usual high standards in a team that's on a slippery slope downwards and there's no one else to step in, which most succesful Liverpool captains never had to deal with.

I'll never ever understand bringing Riera on for Babel. We were in control and looking the more likely to score. It's like he was just sticking to the pre rehearsed plan without a thought for how the game was panning out.

Are we ignoring the vast number of games in the past where's he's dragged us to victory? Was he captain material then? Playing in that team would sap the passion out of the most strong minded players.

What's everyone else's excuse? I'm struggling to remember one decent forward pass played into him or Torres all game.

All a bit shambolic really. We can't even go away and defend properly anymore, which was always our biggest strength. Big problems - too many average players and a manager clinging on to ideals that no longer inspire. Something needs to give as the season is a write off anyway.